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-   -   The Populists and Far Right and Climate Change Denial (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=279829)

Big Blue Eagle 28-08-2019 08:10 PM

The Populists and Far Right and Climate Change Denial
 
Interesting article on the vitriol fired at Greta and other young climate change campaigners, almost exclusively the far right parties and their mouthpieces.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49291464

I can get the logic of the business lobby end of the right being anti anything that might dent their profits or halt their ability to destroy the planet for gain, but I do struggle with understanding the way the populist far right parties like AfD etc, vilify these campaigners and also deny the scientific facts in front of their eyes.

And fair play to the BBC for making it clear exactly who is leading the attacks of the youngsters trying to save the planet for generations following them.

macstar 28-08-2019 09:06 PM

https://youtu.be/qpSQuc69R9c

This guy was part of the infowars mob who frequently got conspiracy theories wrong.

He always has good points but of course the delivery in the videos is rather annoying.

Salad_Burnet 28-08-2019 09:27 PM

I know what you mean. My right-wing views are in many ways informed by Malthusianism which warns against limited resources and over-population. I'm against immigration, for example, because it represents other countries disgorging their surplus population onto our mixed economy and welfare state, which we should not be taking for granted. Post-brexit, there's going to be a lot of trade deals done with powerful countries whereby immigration will be part of any bargain struck. This ought to worry the far-right.

In the real world where people's green credentials are manifested by their actions and not by how they react to the far-right's position on it, I can vouch that very few people, really, are particularly green. I'd even hazard that most Green Party voters are slobs.

CP-RJW 28-08-2019 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macstar (Post 14899856)
https://youtu.be/qpSQuc69R9c

This guy was part of the infowars mob who frequently got conspiracy theories wrong.

He always has good points but of course the delivery in the videos is rather annoying.

He’s never made a good point in his life, outside of one video he made about the fat acceptance movement (which is utter horseshit). Paul Joseph Watson is a complete bellend.

dogstar721 28-08-2019 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macstar (Post 14899856)
https://youtu.be/qpSQuc69R9c

This guy was part of the infowars mob who frequently got conspiracy theories wrong.

He always has good points but of course the delivery in the videos is rather annoying.

Are they ever right? I've never seen good evidence to support posit that their hypothesis achieves the threshold to be a theory

dogstar721 28-08-2019 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle (Post 14899804)
Interesting article on the vitriol fired at Greta and other young climate change campaigners, almost exclusively the far right parties and their mouthpieces.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49291464

I can get the logic of the business lobby end of the right being anti anything that might dent their profits or halt their ability to destroy the planet for gain, but I do struggle with understanding the way the populist far right parties like AfD etc, vilify these campaigners and also deny the scientific facts in front of their eyes.

And fair play to the BBC for making it clear exactly who is leading the attacks of the youngsters trying to save the planet for generations following them.

Because the far right is defined by what they hate and what makes them feel bad. Which seems to include anyone who isn't in their 'club'. A bunch of hysterical snowflakes, driven in equal parts of fear and failure, to despise anything that makes them feel bad about themselves.

redandblue 01-09-2019 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogstar721 (Post 14899900)
Because the far right is defined by what they hate and what makes them feel bad. Which seems to include anyone who isn't in their 'club'. A bunch of hysterical snowflakes, driven in equal parts of fear and failure, to despise anything that makes them feel bad about themselves.

I don’t think this is limited to “far right” just “far” I saw a guy interviewed yesterday selling the socialist worker saying he supports French and Spanish workers, he also supports Brexit but hates all the paymasters and management in all countries.

Maz 01-09-2019 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet (Post 14899873)
I'm against immigration, for example, because it represents other countries disgorging their surplus population onto our mixed economy and welfare state, which we should not be taking for granted. .

Yeah right; immigrants are only ever surplus population, they can’t be individual and valuable human beings in their own right.

rhino_mik 01-09-2019 09:55 AM

"surplus population"? Eugh, what a horrible dehumanising term.

Hpalace 01-09-2019 10:02 AM

quite a disgusting phrase. I’m picturing Aylan on that beach and feeling queasy that someone would consider him “surplus population”

weltklasse 01-09-2019 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhino_mik (Post 14904008)
"surplus population"? Eugh, what a horrible dehumanising term.

quite apt for salad brain himself:angel:

cpfcfly 01-09-2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet (Post 14899873)
I'm against immigration, for example, because it represents other countries disgorging their surplus population onto our mixed economy and welfare state, which we should not be taking for granted.

Immigrants can't get much welfare. Not enough to live on. And immigrants are not "surplus", they are playing a part in the culture of a country. Every single person in the UK for example is an immigrant by definition to the UK at some point. You're an immigrant.

When you say "disgorging" do you imply the nation state is encouraging a citizen to leave to help that country? That would mean a reduction in the skilled workforce of which the economy of that nation depends. In a nation such as the UK, the under 16s and over 65s are effectively paid for by the taxes taken from the working population. As the population ages, and birth rate decreases, the situation suddenly turns very like Japan who are in stage 5 of the demographic model. By encouraging people to leave, it hinders a nation, but helps the destination nation. For example, there was a report a few years back who looked at the costs of immigration:
For every £1 spent on a UK citizen, the UK citizen will pay back 70p. Net -30p.
For every £1 spent on a EU citizen, the EU citizen will pay back £1.30. Net +30p.
For every £1 spent on a non-EU citizen, the non-EU citizen will pay back £10. Net +£9.
Conclusion: immigrants are actually subsidising public services.

Side-note: Benefit fraud costs the UK around £2 billion a year. Tax avoidance costs around £30-£120 billion a year. Why not stop blaming immigrants for "taking things for granted" but not those who avoid paying their fair share of taxes who literally are taking things for granted on a huge industrial scale?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet (Post 14899873)
Post-brexit, there's going to be a lot of trade deals done with powerful countries whereby immigration will be part of any bargain struck. This ought to worry the far-right.

Do you have an example of something similar? The USA and Russia don't do this. The EU and USA don't do this. Not even Canadians can work in the USA without a visa. Such a deal similar to Schengen would be difficult to implement and to negotiate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet (Post 14899873)
In the real world where people's green credentials are manifested by their actions and not by how they react to the far-right's position on it, I can vouch that very few people, really, are particularly green. I'd even hazard that most Green Party voters are slobs.

Sweeping generalisation based on no evidence I assume?

Baffled Bob 2 01-09-2019 11:54 AM

Can't quite put my finger on why I find Greta unnerving. Perhaps it's because she is saying things I just don't want to hear.

Anyhow, all the science seems to back her up and we do need to do something. If it's not too late already.

dogstar721 01-09-2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet (Post 14899873)
I know what you mean. My right-wing views are in many ways informed by Malthusianism which warns against limited resources and over-population. I'm against immigration, for example, because it represents other countries disgorging their surplus population onto our mixed economy and welfare state, which we should not be taking for granted. Post-brexit, there's going to be a lot of trade deals done with powerful countries whereby immigration will be part of any bargain struck. This ought to worry the far-right.

In the real world where people's green credentials are manifested by their actions and not by how they react to the far-right's position on it, I can vouch that very few people, really, are particularly green. I'd even hazard that most Green Party voters are slobs.

The tendency of immigration to the UK isn't the 'Europe's but the skilled and educated.

dogstar721 01-09-2019 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 (Post 14904135)
Can't quite put my finger on why I find Greta unnerving. Perhaps it's because she is saying things I just don't want to hear.

Anyhow, all the science seems to back her up and we do need to do something. If it's not too late already.

It kind of freaks me out that she seems to have her life in order and a sense of self at sixteen, that I don't have at 48. She impressed me, I think that scares a lot of people in the right who tend to have what upsets them

rhino_mik 01-09-2019 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hpalace (Post 14904014)
quite a disgusting phrase. I’m picturing Aylan on that beach and feeling queasy that someone would consider him “surplus population”

It actually has a historical context which worryingly easy for Salad to use.

"In the discussion of the plan, Backe noted a "surplus population" in Russia of about 20 to 30 million. If that population was cut off from food, that food could be used to feed both the invading German Army and the German population itself. Industrialization had created a large urban society in the Soviet Union. The Backe plan envisioned that this population, numbering many millions, would be cut off from their food supply, thus freeing up the food produced in the Soviet Union, now at Germany's disposal, to sustain Germans."

Crofty 01-09-2019 04:29 PM

'Surplus population'? You should be ashamed of yourself for using such a vile phrase. You are an excuse for a human being you sad, dehumanised fool.

Baffled Bob 2 01-09-2019 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhino_mik (Post 14904375)
It actually has a historical context which worryingly easy for Salad to use.

"In the discussion of the plan, Backe noted a "surplus population" in Russia of about 20 to 30 million. If that population was cut off from food, that food could be used to feed both the invading German Army and the German population itself. Industrialization had created a large urban society in the Soviet Union. The Backe plan envisioned that this population, numbering many millions, would be cut off from their food supply, thus freeing up the food produced in the Soviet Union, now at Germany's disposal, to sustain Germans."

It's funny because I thought of this:

"Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

Skintagain 01-09-2019 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 (Post 14904135)
Can't quite put my finger on why I find Greta unnerving. Perhaps it's because she is saying things I just don't want to hear.

Anyhow, all the science seems to back her up and we do need to do something. If it's not too late already.

There's the thing, what's Britain going to do. We contribute less than 1% of the worlds human produced CO2 and its falling with the policies already in place.
I'm not impressed by campaigners that cause disruption when we are pretty much there already.

Skintagain 01-09-2019 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogstar721 (Post 14904197)
It kind of freaks me out that she seems to have her life in order and a sense of self at sixteen, that I don't have at 48. She impressed me, I think that scares a lot of people in the right who tend to have what upsets them

Don't try to think about it, she'll be just as confused as you by the time she's 48.


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