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-   -   Jairo Riedewald (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271278)

Happy Arthur 04-02-2021 12:17 PM

It's great he has signed a new deal. My gut feeling was he wouldn't. There must of been a time where he thought he'd made a huge mistake coming here. I guess the last year has turned things around.

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 04-02-2021 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitzie123 (Post 15632216)
His part in the goal.... It was a fantastic goal with about five players that retrospectively 'could have done more'. I'm sure his comments were centered round the fact we had conceded early rathther than accepting personal responsibility.

Very happy Jairo has signed and believe that the next manager we assign will see great use for him in the starting 11.

You may be right. Although he did also say something along the lines of 'maybe I could have done better.'

I also wouldn't be surprised, (although obviously I'm guessing), if closing down is something Roy has been asking him to improve on - so may have been frustrated he didn't manage to block it.

It was just interesting really that it looked like an angry shot at the time and he himself mentioned that anger. He isn't a player who shows his emotions on the pitch very often.

As for using him in the first 11, I think Roy will continue to as well. Even if it isn't every week. He is still young and improving his game.

eagle mart 04-02-2021 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Arthur (Post 15632458)
It's great he has signed a new deal. My gut feeling was he wouldn't. There must of been a time where he thought he'd made a huge mistake coming here. I guess the last year has turned things around.

Yeah, what a mindset the lad has. We obviously don't see the whole picture. He couldn't spend his whole career in obscurity, not even sure how you function when not in the first team squad for such a long duration.

GreatGonzo 04-02-2021 12:31 PM

Its interesting that people see Luka as offering far more defensively than Jairo (and i agree he needs to improve in this area) however it depends on how the ball is won back.

On Tuesday against Newcastle Luka won 2 tackles and made 1 interception. Jairo did the opposite winning 1 tackle and making 2 interceptions. The difference comes in Luka blocking 2 shots.

Cabaye read the game so well and it is what made him such a great player, he would intercept the ball, rather than always have to tackle, he would put himself in good poditions to make sure opposition players couldn't pass. That seems to be more of the way Jairo is playing. I think Leeds who play with more pace and will attack us far more than Newcastle did will be a good game to assess him in, assuming of course that he starts it alongside Luka rather than one of teh Jimmy MaC's coming back in.

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 04-02-2021 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagle mart (Post 15632467)
Yeah, what a mindset the lad has. We obviously don't see the whole picture. He couldn't spend his whole career in obscurity, not even sure how you function when not in the first team squad for such a long duration.

It looked to me like he did struggle a little bit with confidence and belief. That difficult debut, seeing FDB leave and not finding himself a place in the team probably did make it a difficult start.

I remember last season when Roy asked him to play left back, he apparently wasn't sure about it at first and didn't sound confident about doing so. I remember Roy saying they had to talk to him to give him the belief that he could do it. If that had been Kelly for example he would have jumped at the chance to start a game and backed himself to play anywhere I suspect.

He seems a humble young man and I think maybe they had to work on giving him the belief and confidence he can do well in the PL. Playing games regularly, even if sometimes a sub, in his best position, scoring a goal (now 2), will no doubt have all helped him.

Dave Hedgehog 04-02-2021 12:40 PM

Both Luka and Macca do a lot of work off the ball that doesn't get counted in stats.

Blocking off passing lines, filling space and disrupting the opposition without registering a tackle or interception. They're all a massive part of what makes a good defensive midfielder, and there's no real way to quantify that as far as I'm aware.

Jairo and Meyer have both been guilty of letting opposition pass too easily through the midfield when playing. I think that's Roy's biggest problem with them.

Luka and the two Maccas have a bit of the chaos factor to their game. Jairo's much more controlled. You probably want a mix of both.

The other thing re. tackle and interceptions is that you don't need to make so many tackles if you actually keep the ball. Jairo's ball retention is streets ahead of Luka.

GreatGonzo 04-02-2021 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632484)
Both Luka and Macca do a lot of work off the ball that doesn't get counted in stats.

Blocking off passing lines, filling space and disrupting the opposition without registering a tackle or interception. They're all a massive part of what makes a good defensive midfielder, and there's no real way to quantify that as far as I'm aware.

Jairo and Meyer have both been guilty of letting opposition pass too easily through the midfield when playing. I think that's Roy's biggest problem with them.

Luka and the two Maccas have a bit of the chaos factor to their game. Jairo's much more controlled. You probably want a mix of both.

The other thing re. tackle and interceptions is that you don't need to make so many tackles if you actually keep the ball. Jairo's ball retention is streets ahead of Luka.

Yup I agree with that. Those that read the game better and block passing lanes to often tend to pick up interceptions as players try to get the ball past them though but agree it is not something you can point to a single stat and that does the job.

I remember one of the coaches when i did my badges relayed a story about a manager dropping a player who was a fans favourite. Was always putting his body on the line and block shots, making last ditch tackles. The manager dropped him because there wouldn't need to be those block and those tackles, if the player hadn't given the ball away cheaply in the first place.

Not sure Meyer was ever really given a chance in the middle, played most of his games for us wide.

Jairo has the best ball retention of all players to have played for us this season. I would like to see him make himself busier in possession to make more use of this but for me he has to play as Roy wants to play a style where we progress up the pitch passing the ball. Retention and playing forward is key to that.

Tomo 04-02-2021 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632484)
Both Luka and Macca do a lot of work off the ball that doesn't get counted in stats.

Blocking off passing lines, filling space and disrupting the opposition without registering a tackle or interception. They're all a massive part of what makes a good defensive midfielder, and there's no real way to quantify that as far as I'm aware.

Jairo and Meyer have both been guilty of letting opposition pass too easily through the midfield when playing. I think that's Roy's biggest problem with them.

Luka and the two Maccas have a bit of the chaos factor to their game. Jairo's much more controlled. You probably want a mix of both.

The other thing re. tackle and interceptions is that you don't need to make so many tackles if you actually keep the ball. Jairo's ball retention is streets ahead of Luka.

I do agree, but when you're not winning many games, and shipping goals, they can't be doing that much right!

It also negates, that the best way of not conceding, is to keep hold of the ball. Something that we don't do well enough with Luka and Jimmy Mac.

Luka has improved the last 2 games, but he still gets beaten far too easily (see the chance Wilson created for Fraser).

El Aguila 04-02-2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatGonzo (Post 15632474)
Its interesting that people see Luka as offering far more defensively than Jairo (and i agree he needs to improve in this area) however it depends on how the ball is won back.

On Tuesday against Newcastle Luka won 2 tackles and made 1 interception. Jairo did the opposite winning 1 tackle and making 2 interceptions. The difference comes in Luka blocking 2 shots.

Cabaye read the game so well and it is what made him such a great player, he would intercept the ball, rather than always have to tackle, he would put himself in good poditions to make sure opposition players couldn't pass. That seems to be more of the way Jairo is playing. I think Leeds who play with more pace and will attack us far more than Newcastle did will be a good game to assess him in, assuming of course that he starts it alongside Luka rather than one of teh Jimmy MaC's coming back in.

This is something Jairo has added to his game, I think. He got in two excellent and forward looking interceptions, soon after coming on against Wolves - it really seemed to set him up for the way he's been playing since. McCarthy's good at that, too, of course.

bigend1 04-02-2021 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632484)
Both Luka and Macca do a lot of work off the ball that doesn't get counted in stats.

Blocking off passing lines, filling space and disrupting the opposition without registering a tackle or interception. They're all a massive part of what makes a good defensive midfielder, and there's no real way to quantify that as far as I'm aware.

Jairo and Meyer have both been guilty of letting opposition pass too easily through the midfield when playing. I think that's Roy's biggest problem with them.

Luka and the two Maccas have a bit of the chaos factor to their game. Jairo's much more controlled. You probably want a mix of both.

The other thing re. tackle and interceptions is that you don't need to make so many tackles if you actually keep the ball. Jairo's ball retention is streets ahead of Luka.

This is what I have been trying to say but people dismiss this as being anti jairo. I'm not, he doesn't do this and its essential. I really do rate jairo but this is rhe ugly stuff I am talking about.

Luka and Jimmy do it so well and to expand on the points you've made, When we beat the big sides many just put it down to the top players "having an off day" and us sitting to deep. It is sometimes but its so much more than that. The teams we face know 100% as soon as they get the ball in the middle one of these boys will be on them!! If they dangle a leg it will get kicked, if they take the extra touch they will get tackled.. an extra look before they play the pass and its crunching. Top players are rushed, concentration is divided between control, deciding where to pass/shoot etc and where the imminent tackle is coming from.

Jairo doesn't do that. His tackling is excellent. His timing good but he does sit off until he's sure he should win the ball. Quality players get that extra little bit of time and are less rushed.

Another part of the ugly not in stats and generally not appreciated is more of that.. the nudges, the getting in the way, the little kicks, shoves, barges etc.. that put players off their stride. Luka and Jimmy so often have a little nudge, not a foul, just a brush ans the next touch is heavy giving it away or allowing another player to make the tackle. No stats, no real plaudits but so essential.

Its the ugly and jairo needs to add it with some aggression. Thats constructive and not slagging him off!!

scro 04-02-2021 01:32 PM

He's a versatile squad player who is young. That's why he has been offered and signed a new deal. He's very middly diddly. Not sure why anyone would feel strongly either way about him. I am not personally sure he has the dynamism required to be a permanent fixture in the starting 11, his lack of pressing urgency and run tracking worries me sometimes but you are never disappointed or downbeat when he's named in the line up.

Hope he steps it up a level and proves to be more than squad filler. Will be happy if he does.

switchboard 04-02-2021 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scro (Post 15632574)
He's a versatile squad player who is young. That's why he has been offered and signed a new deal. He's very middly diddly. Not sure why anyone would feel strongly either way about him. I am not personally sure he has the dynamism required to be a permanent fixture in the starting 11, his lack of pressing urgency and run tracking worries me sometimes but you are never disappointed or downbeat when he's named in the line up.

Hope he steps it up a level and proves to be more than squad filler. Will be happy if he does.

Best way to sum up Jairo, is that he is a digital player in a very analogue squad, I think we all want some entertainment upgrade on watching the journymen we have been watching for the last 3 years, whether Jairo is better or worse than them.

AJ 04-02-2021 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632420)
Looking back, it's telling that people have been calling for him to start since 2017 when he was still very raw and inconsistent.

He's only just ready now to play regularly, in my view. You can see the difference in his confidence.

Sometimes the manager does know best.

I agree with this. I recall when he played at LB and people were giving him MoM. He really wasn't that good at LB, it was just that he was better than what else was available and he was putting in a lot of effort. At home to Brighton, when he was subbed at h/t he was torn to shreds in that first half. Now, he has found a better position for him and is growing into it. I still think he is 12-18 months away from showing us what he can really do.

PemboExpress 04-02-2021 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632420)
Looking back, it's telling that people have been calling for him to start since 2017 when he was still very raw and inconsistent.

He's only just ready now to play regularly, in my view. You can see the difference in his confidence.

Sometimes the manager does know best.

Yes, I am pleased he has now got to the point of regularly contending a 1st team place. I must admit I did not think he had a future with us during the 2019/20 pre-season (wearing an allegedly oversize shirt) and last season, despite an impressive performance at Citeh.

He has certainly improved since, but I am still not viewing him as the new midfield messiah. He is a neat and tidy footballer, but we need to see a lot more zest and drive and him taking control of games before he is the real deal in my eyes.

Good to see him come through though and for the club to recognise that.

Ardent 04-02-2021 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog (Post 15632484)
Both Luka and Macca do a lot of work off the ball that doesn't get counted in stats.

Blocking off passing lines, filling space and disrupting the opposition without registering a tackle or interception. They're all a massive part of what makes a good defensive midfielder, and there's no real way to quantify that as far as I'm aware.

Jairo and Meyer have both been guilty of letting opposition pass too easily through the midfield when playing. I think that's Roy's biggest problem with them.

Luka and the two Maccas have a bit of the chaos factor to their game. Jairo's much more controlled. You probably want a mix of both.

The other thing re. tackle and interceptions is that you don't need to make so many tackles if you actually keep the ball. Jairo's ball retention is streets ahead of Luka.

re. last sentence, and anyone else in the squad.

Stinger1 04-02-2021 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switchboard (Post 15632591)
Best way to sum up Jairo, is that he is a digital player in a very analogue squad, I think we all want some entertainment upgrade on watching the journymen we have been watching for the last 3 years, whether Jairo is better or worse than them.

How many midfielders are there 24 or younger that are at clubs outside the top 8 (top 6 + Leicester + Everton)?

I can only think of Declan Rice, Kalvin Phillips and maybe Sean Longstaff. There aren't many midfielders at similar level clubs who are better than Jairo at his age.

Martin H 04-02-2021 03:01 PM

Lot good posts above showing perhaps how people value or notice different aspects of the game.

I have always 'liked' Jairo because he has composure, a comfort with the ball at his feet and a good passing range and he is mean with those passes. Despite being a fan I think for a long while (in U23s)he didn't show the intensity and mobility needed to hold down a PL midfield slot. Neither of these mean running about like a headless chicken. It's more about getting up and down the pitch to both defend and create. While defending, getting into the right positions and applying pressure on the opposition to contain the risks. It's not about running miles, it's about being in the right positions. Intensity is the right word but it's often construed as running around a lot I think. Interceptions, blocking lines, pressurising and pushing players into less dangerous areas.

For some reason the penny didn't seem to drop and with Roy watching the U23 and I assume the same in training I can't blame him for not starting him in the first team. The season that he covered at LB (was that just last year?) he suddenly started to look a far better player in U23s and then when he covered for PVA I thought for the first time he got all of that side of his LB role right and deservedly got praise for that. Then he has just built on that in midfield and looked very good in pre-season. He got an injury and that knocked him a little and again TBF to Roy he wasn't the same when he came back.

Right now, I know he is getting a lot of praise, which is deserved but he is still WIP to me. He has to get more engaged with the ball. For a CM he isn't getting on the ball enough. I think he only touched it 32 times in midweek? That's really low for a CM. What he did, he did really well but he did go missing in the middle of the match. Since his injury there were several games where the game went on around him at times.

Part of that is that I am not sure his best partner is Luka despite it being effective this week. We will see but I predict that we will continue to see Luka's stats counts soar and Jairo's will dip. The opposite was true alongside Macca. Part personality, confidence of both players I think. I do hope he continues to 'grow' as a player and we could have another important part of the jigsaw. I would seem him in the Luka role rather than next to it personally (this isn't knocking Luka, more about Jairo). He will have to take the odd shot in the 'jewels' though. Turning your back is not an option :) :)

Ian Hart 04-02-2021 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 15632667)

He will have to take the odd shot in the 'jewels' though. Turning your back is not an option :) :)

That comment is a bit below the belt ;)

norwoodeagle 04-02-2021 03:38 PM

I'm really pleased he has signed an extension to his contract. I suspect that he reviewed his position in the squad and could see that a place for him in the staring 11 was opening up and could be his for the next couple of years. Also who would want to be an out of contract EPL squad player whilst the pandemic continues and as football starts to cut costs. A good move by both the club and Jairo.

glaziers fan 04-02-2021 04:20 PM

He just has to show more 'snap' and intensity. Increase the energy and desire. He's no slower than Milivojevic, who is approaching his best form. Jairo is very strong, decent in the air, can tackle, and his passing is excellent. He needs a run of games, not just the odd one here and there. He shouldn't have been dropped earlier in the season. I believe the intensity will improve once his confidence increases from being a certain starter.

As MartinH says, eventually he might replace Luka as the holding midfielder, but for now he should be learning from Milivojevic as much as possible, our best centre mid currently despite being much maligned.


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