CPFC BBS

CPFC BBS (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/index.php)
-   General Palace Discussion (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   Jairo Riedewald (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271278)

out vile jelly 13-08-2017 11:07 AM

Jesus Christ guys! Give the guy a chance. We moan for seasons about not giving youth a chance and then, when we actually play young players, we are on their case in their very first game...

It doesn't matter that he has played in that system before: he's young, he is playing with a new team, in a new league, with one of the other CBs only a week into his time at the club.

Lots of things to work on, sure, but get a bloody grip!

eagleborn 13-08-2017 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out vile jelly (Post 13777162)
Jesus Christ guys! Give the guy a chance. We moan for seasons about not giving youth a chance and then, when we actually play young players, we are on their case in their very first game...

It doesn't matter that he has played in that system before: he's young, he is playing with a new team, in a new league, with one of the other CBs only a week into his time at the club.

Lots of things to work on, sure, but get a bloody grip!

Yep. Some people on here criticise whatever the c see. It's embarrassing. First we don't play enough youth. Then the youth we play aren't home grown. Then the youth aren't good enough. There is no winning with some posters on here. I do wonder why they support palace some times given that they don't see any positives whatsoever

Stavros 69 13-08-2017 11:18 AM

I thought he looked pretty good for a first game.

spt1978 13-08-2017 11:19 AM

Will need games to settle in, think he will be a good signing.

mcmean 13-08-2017 11:22 AM

Was poor yesterday. He got absolutely bardged off the ball after about 2 minutes and there were a few knowing worried looks around me. Arguably at fault for the second when he didn't get anywhere near the bloke who headed it in, mainly because he didn't know he was there. PVA gave him a bollocking right away.

Hopefully just first game nerves and needs to settle in, but it shows you what a difference Premier League experience makes - TFM was brilliant yesterday, dominated in the air and looked very astute with the ball at his feet. We all need to remember they're both 20 and 19 respectively

mb23 13-08-2017 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by out vile jelly (Post 13777162)
Jesus Christ guys! Give the guy a chance. We moan for seasons about not giving youth a chance and then, when we actually play young players, we are on their case in their very first game...

It doesn't matter that he has played in that system before: he's young, he is playing with a new team, in a new league, with one of the other CBs only a week into his time at the club.

Lots of things to work on, sure, but get a bloody grip!

Wasn't good yesterday, but it would be stupid to write him off.

However, from what I saw he's clearly not PL ready. A couple more performances like that and I worry that his confidence will be absolutely shot. Worry for him massively against Liverpool next week, for example.

He'll have to play as things stand as he's the only LCB we have (apart from Damo). But I really think we should go all out for Sakho and then ease Riedewald, as I don't think he's ready yet. Hopefully he'll prove me wrong in the coming weeks, and I think he'll still be a very good signing in the long term.

carter 13-08-2017 02:10 PM

If anything he needs to be playing where Puncheon is. He is not a centre back for the Premier League right now. Needs to get faster and stronger. The second and third goal yesterday was piss poor from him. I hope this doesn't turn in to a Moyes/Januzaj relationship where he is the pet

NorthPalace23 13-08-2017 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcmean (Post 13777207)
Was poor yesterday. He got absolutely bardged off the ball after about 2 minutes and there were a few knowing worried looks around me. Arguably at fault for the second when he didn't get anywhere near the bloke who headed it in, mainly because he didn't know he was there. PVA gave him a bollocking right away.

Hopefully just first game nerves and needs to settle in, but it shows you what a difference Premier League experience makes - TFM was brilliant yesterday, dominated in the air and looked very astute with the ball at his feet. We all need to remember they're both 20 and 19 respectively

Neither should've started.

Both should've been given time to settle in at the club. It is ridiculous that a 19year old at the club for 2 days gets in ahead of Tomkins.

What great man management by De Boer, wouldn't surprise me if there are splits in the dressing room already.

Watch the replay of the second goal. Anyone who thinks Reidewald should be starting is mental.

jimmy the gent 13-08-2017 02:18 PM

Three Dutch players at the club, all started yesterday. Dutch manager, dutch assistant. Long standing premiership players dropped to accommodate debutants. Yep, can't see any potential for cliques or dressing room splits there...

smoll 13-08-2017 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPalace23 (Post 13777592)
Neither should've started.

Both should've been given time to settle in at the club. It is ridiculous that a 19year old at the club for 2 days gets in ahead of Tomkins.

What great man management by De Boer, wouldn't surprise me if there are splits in the dressing room already.

Watch the replay of the second goal. Anyone who thinks Reidewald should be starting is mental.

Spot on

Martin H 13-08-2017 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPalace23 (Post 13777592)
Neither should've started.

Both should've been given time to settle in at the club. It is ridiculous that a 19year old at the club for 2 days gets in ahead of Tomkins.

What great man management by De Boer, wouldn't surprise me if there are splits in the dressing room already.

Watch the replay of the second goal. Anyone who thinks Reidewald should be starting is mental.

Crikey, watch the replay for the third and tell me why you would select Tomkins if that is the rationale. Fosu-Mensah had a very good game and not sure what you didn't like. Jairo definitely made mistakes but the rest of his play was encouraging. Need to know how good he can be in the air before knowing if he is best at DCM rather than LCB but don't see the problem with him starting.

PremierPalace 13-08-2017 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy the gent (Post 13777597)
Three Dutch players at the club, all started yesterday. Dutch manager, dutch assistant. Long standing premiership players dropped to accommodate debutants. Yep, can't see any potential for cliques or dressing room splits there...


Van Aanholt was already here. Fosu Mensah was probably our second best player yesterday. Riedewald is one of Europe's top prospects. Chill.

NorthPalace23 15-08-2017 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 13777613)
Crikey, watch the replay for the third and tell me why you would select Tomkins if that is the rationale. Fosu-Mensah had a very good game and not sure what you didn't like. Jairo definitely made mistakes but the rest of his play was encouraging. Need to know how good he can be in the air before knowing if he is best at DCM rather than LCB but don't see the problem with him starting.

Tomkins has over 200 games of Premier League experience.

Last season we looked good with Sakho and Tomkins at the back. I'm a big fan of both. They were our best two centre backs last season. I like Dann but for me personally he needs to be a squad player like Puncheon.

As for Rediewald he has not done anything to earn the shirt, other than being Dutch and joining from a big club.

He was just as culpable for their third goal as Tomkins who had only just come on.

Tomkins and Sakho at the back in a 4-5-1 formation going forward Mr De Boer.

Fosu Mensah like Rediewald is a good player but they need time to adapt to the club and the Premier League. They should be squad players. They aren't good enough or experienced enough to walk into our team.

rhiannapaul 15-08-2017 08:36 PM

just another ordinary player laughing all the way to the bank

so bog adverage

rhiannapaul 15-08-2017 08:36 PM

.

PHIL BARBER 15-08-2017 08:37 PM

Gutless defending of a cross

eagleborn 15-08-2017 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhiannapaul (Post 13781719)
just another ordinary player laughing all the way to the bank

so bog adverage

Based on one performance? You joker.

Mr Palace 15-08-2017 08:47 PM

Riedewald is young and needs time but if he plays again like that then he will have to be dropped. His defending for the second and third goals was abject. I can only assume that in holland it's not very physical or fast paced as he seemed shocked by Mounie's presence. Hopefully he will quickly adapt.

maestro 15-08-2017 08:49 PM

We bought a defender because he can pass.......

Great

eagleborn 15-08-2017 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestro (Post 13781742)
We bought a defender because he can pass.......

Great

Yet when Delaney just hoofed it he was slated for losing the ball. There really is no winning is there.

Give him a bloody chance.

maestro 15-08-2017 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagleborn (Post 13781744)
Yet when Delaney just hoofed it he was slated for losing the ball. There really is no winning is there.

Give him a bloody chance.

On the wages they on they should be able to defend and pass the ball.

Its not rocket science.

eagleborn 15-08-2017 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maestro (Post 13781749)
On the wages they on they should be able to defend and pass the ball.

Its not rocket science.

Now why the he'll did no-one else see that before. Managerial genius you. If you could just inform parish and Dr boer then we'll all be fine.

I genuinely cannot believe you and others are writing him off after one game. We're palace ffs. Not Chelsea or united. What the **** has happened to our so called fans

Holmbury Eagle 15-08-2017 09:03 PM

Needs to toughen up a bit but has potential. He will suffer against Burnley if he plays. Their forwards murdered our Centre Backs last season, pretty much won everything with long balls up to their big men. It could be even worse this year if Jairo starts with TFM as part of a back 3. I think he should be bedded in slowly otherwise his confidence could be shot very quickly.

Mr Palace 15-08-2017 09:05 PM

He needs a chance and time to adapt. I think it's high risk throwing him straight in, especially alongside another inexperienced defender and a new system. But he clearly has talent and hopefully he can quickly adapt.

Eagle Kneevil 15-08-2017 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Palace (Post 13781761)
He needs a chance and time to adapt. I think it's high risk throwing him straight in, especially alongside another inexperienced defender and a new system. But he clearly has talent and hopefully he can quickly adapt.

Enough about Valerian Ismael, what about Jairo Riedewald?

racehorse-80s 15-08-2017 09:17 PM

Should have just signed Sakho and been done with it .

Owngoal 15-08-2017 09:22 PM

He looked fine against The Germans but went to pieces after an early mistake. Hopefully won't happen again.

Maiden Eagle 15-08-2017 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eagleborn (Post 13781752)
Now why the he'll did no-one else see that before. Managerial genius you. If you could just inform parish and Dr boer then we'll all be fine.

I genuinely cannot believe you and others are writing him off after one game. We're palace ffs. Not Chelsea or united. What the **** has happened to our so called fans

Please bear in mind that Maestro is probably the biggest moaner in these boards. Apparently, because he has alledgely played a good standard of Football, he feels it gives him a god given right to slag off everything the Club does. What makes it worse, that he NEVER ever goes to any games, just watches online.

Mr Palace 15-08-2017 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle Kneevil (Post 13781768)
Enough about Valerian Ismael, what about Jairo Riedewald?

That was such a shame as Ismael went on to have a great career. But Carl Leaburn murdered him!! That was a dark night. Hopefully Riedewald adapts quickly - I'm sure he will.

minch1 15-08-2017 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Palace (Post 13776956)
He made an initial bad mistake for the third goal by not winning or even really contesting a goal kick. Mounie out muscled him and then Riedewald slowly jogged back before Mounie finished. His mistake for the second goal was as bad - no challenge at all and it wasn't as if Mounie did any great movement.

A 19 and 20 year in the back three together when they haven't had time to practice together is managerial madness.

What concerned me was that after the couple of errors he didn't seem to want the ball, which meant when he did get it he was passing back to Hennesey and putting him in trouble. Between them they were playing the hot potato game, I don't want it you have it. He just didn't seem ready to be plunged in at the deep end. As a result the whole back line started to look nervy. His first game should have been as a sub in mid field.

Thefunkymonk 15-08-2017 10:12 PM

The bloke got booed after 15 mins when passing backwards..

Give him a chance. He done some very good Stuff aswel. Think he's going to be a very good player.

Sir.S.C Remembered 16-08-2017 10:02 AM

It was a bad first game, but that is all it is.

He kept over passing back to the keeper even when not under pressure. He looked defensively poor and a bit physically weak. The third goal is comical too and he played a big part there.

Harry Holmesdale 16-08-2017 10:06 AM

Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.

Pathetic to boo like that.

This is why the national team is so poor.

whereEaglesFly 16-08-2017 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13782243)
Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.

Pathetic to boo like that.

This is why the national team is so poor.

He got booed for passing it back when there was an attacker right behind him, imagine the outrage if he tried to turn on it

jobiinthelastmi 16-08-2017 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thefunkymonk (Post 13781832)
The bloke got booed after 15 mins when passing backwards..

Give him a chance. He done some very good Stuff aswel. Think he's going to be a very good player.

Agree, however sometimes is better to hit it long rather than put the keeper under pressure (a particularly poor keeper) and let the opposition regroup.

One bad game amongst a dire performance will not do any harm.

rambo1 16-08-2017 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13782243)
Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.

Pathetic to boo like that.

This is why the national team is so poor.

Booing is Pathetic at Any-Time,the Booing of the National Team is a,Huge,Reason why the Team is Poor & No Trophy since 1966.

Shamone 16-08-2017 10:40 AM

Passing back to the keeper is fine. Passing back to Hennessey is not.

ForzaPalace 16-08-2017 10:47 AM

Defenders need to be leaders or be led. He's clearly not a leader (expected at his young age) and was without leadership on Saturday (Dann). Stick someone like Sakho next to him and he'll thrive. Doubt that will happen though.

rambo1 16-08-2017 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir.S.C Remembered (Post 13782235)
It was a bad first game, but that is all it is.

He kept over passing back to the keeper even when not under pressure. He looked defensively poor and a bit physically weak. The third goal is comical too and he played a big part there.

That is the only thing that was Wrong,as Stated by Frank De Boer,there is a Right-Time & a Wrong-Time,& area,to Play the Short Passing Game.
None of the Goals came from this,However.
Its only 1 Game & Plenty of Time to Get it Right.
With the International Break coming up,Wilf Zaha,could,only Miss 2 Games,Liverpool & Swansea.

Shipp Ahoy! 16-08-2017 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1 (Post 13782320)
Booing is Pathetic at Any-Time,the Booing of the National Team is a,Huge,Reason why the Team is Poor & No Trophy since 1966.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

GreatGonzo 16-08-2017 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1 (Post 13782366)
That is the only thing that was Wrong,as Stated by Frank De Boer,there is a Right-Time & a Wrong-Time,& area,to Play the Short Passing Game.
None of the Goals came from this,However.
Its only 1 Game & Plenty of Time to Get it Right.
With the International Break coming up,Wilf Zaha,could,only Miss 2 Games,Liverpool & Swansea.

The second goal came from him not getting off the ground to challenge Mounie, the 3rd he is holding Mounie 40- yards from goal and then he is nowhere. I think Scott Dann should have been taking more responsibility for Mounie.

Mr Palace 16-08-2017 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1 (Post 13782320)
Booing is Pathetic at Any-Time,the Booing of the National Team is a,Huge,Reason why the Team is Poor & No Trophy since 1966.

You've spouted this line before and it's total and utter bollocks. I got to England games and the fans rarely boo. There are multiple reasons why our national team has consistently under-achieved but the fans aren't one. You do talk a lot of nonsense.

JackTheBiscuit 16-08-2017 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambo1 (Post 13782320)
Booing is Pathetic at Any-Time,the Booing of the National Team is a,Huge,Reason why the Team is Poor & No Trophy since 1966.

Boooooooooooo. Get off

Nigelbrag 16-08-2017 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Palace (Post 13781761)
He needs a chance and time to adapt. I think it's high risk throwing him straight in, especially alongside another inexperienced defender and a new system. But he clearly has talent and hopefully he can quickly adapt.

This is spot on.

Personally i feel for now he needs to slot into a less pressured position in the team to gain experience of the premiership, and then be moved back into defence if need be.
Ideally if we persist with 3 at the back then for me it needs to be with the right balance, i see Mensah, Dann and if possible Sakho as the right combination and experience, and with Luka in front for added protection for the defence and midfield.
Then Cabaye with Loftus-Cheek and Riediwald alongside in midfield for added experience alongside youth, and a Front Three of Zaha, Benteke and Van Persie to give us that extra firepower that we desperately need, i feel we are then competitive in ALL areas.

Palestinian 16-08-2017 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minch1 (Post 13781826)
What concerned me was that after the couple of errors he didn't seem to want the ball, which meant when he did get it he was passing back to Hennesey and putting him in trouble. Between them they were playing the hot potato game, I don't want it you have it. He just didn't seem ready to be plunged in at the deep end. As a result the whole back line started to look nervy. His first game should have been as a sub in mid field.

That's at least partly because Huddersfield made changes - for the first 15 minutes they were content to let us slowly pass the ball out without putting any of our defenders under pressure. It was really noticeable that just before their first there must have been an instruction from Wagner to close us down more. From then on they pushed 2 or 3 players forward and put Riedewald and the other CBs under pressure. This pressure only lessened a little once WH started mixing it up with a few aimless punts upfield, but that took almost until half time. The damage to Riedewald's confidence had been done by then.

With a 'leader' next to him like Sakho I think that he may well prove to be a good signing, but with Dann alongside I will continue to worry.

DHeagle 16-08-2017 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigelbrag (Post 13782486)
This is spot on.

Personally i feel for now he needs to slot into a less pressured position in the team to gain experience of the premiership, and then be moved back into defence if need be.
Ideally if we persist with 3 at the back then for me it needs to be with the right balance, i see Mensah, Dann and if possible Sakho as the right combination and experience, and with Luka in front for added protection for the defence and midfield.
Then Cabaye with Loftus-Cheek and Riediwald alongside in midfield for added experience alongside youth, and a Front Three of Zaha, Benteke and Van Persie to give us that extra firepower that we desperately need, i feel we are then competitive in ALL areas.

Where does the width come from in that team? Assuming we're playing a similar system, it's more square pegs in round holes. And if we change the system, only one player in that side can offer us any natural width.

red&blue_moomin 16-08-2017 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPalace23 (Post 13781639)
Tomkins has over 200 games of Premier League experience.

Last season we looked good with Sakho and Tomkins at the back. I'm a big fan of both. They were our best two centre backs last season. I like Dann but for me personally he needs to be a squad player like Puncheon.

As for Rediewald he has not done anything to earn the shirt, other than being Dutch and joining from a big club.

He was just as culpable for their third goal as Tomkins who had only just come on.

Tomkins and Sakho at the back in a 4-5-1 formation going forward Mr De Boer.

Fosu Mensah like Rediewald is a good player but they need time to adapt to the club and the Premier League. They should be squad players. They aren't good enough or experienced enough to walk into our team.

We need to pretty much change our entire defence barring the left fbs. They weren't that great under BFS either 5-0, 4-0, 3-1, 3-0 losses, 2-0 losses with a few 1-0s thrown in for good measure (these are only the defeats under BFS, which were actually worse than under Pardew) do not make me think 4231 is the way forward. It's not the system it's players that don't press, stand off allow shots to be made, a goal keeper that doesn't command his backline, has no authority, can't distribute and is always spilling the ball. A senior CB who seems to have forgotten how to organis and be a leader.

Bobby Smith 16-08-2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigelbrag (Post 13782486)
This is spot on.

Personally i feel for now he needs to slot into a less pressured position in the team to gain experience of the premiership, and then be moved back into defence if need be.
Ideally if we persist with 3 at the back then for me it needs to be with the right balance, i see Mensah, Dann and if possible Sakho as the right combination and experience, and with Luka in front for added protection for the defence and midfield.
Then Cabaye with Loftus-Cheek and Riediwald alongside in midfield for added experience alongside youth, and a Front Three of Zaha, Benteke and Van Persie to give us that extra firepower that we desperately need, i feel we are then competitive in ALL areas.

No full backs or wing backs? The only natural width provided by Zaha?

Are you sure?

(Just seen this is repeating a post further down the chain; great minds think alike!)

Bobby Smith 16-08-2017 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red&blue_moomin (Post 13782501)
We need to pretty much change our entire defence barring the left fbs. They weren't that great under BFS either 5-0, 4-0, 3-1, 3-0 losses, 2-0 losses with a few 1-0s thrown in for good measure (these are only the defeats under BFS, which were actually worse than under Pardew) do not make me think 4231 is the way forward. It's not the system it's players that don't press, stand off allow shots to be made, a goal keeper that doesn't command his backline, has no authority, can't distribute and is always spilling the ball. A senior CB who seems to have forgotten how to organis and be a leader.

Do you believe we're going to change our entire defence in one transfer window?

My understanding is that BFS wanted to implement a back 3 throughout the club, from Academy to 1st XI. But he wasn't planning to do that overnight.

sydnsteve 16-08-2017 12:55 PM

I thought he looked a little boy lost. Did not even jump for their second goal. How can that possibly be? Hope he improves dramatically before Anfield.

Nelson Muntz 16-08-2017 01:01 PM

Not read the whole thread, but my first thoughts were that he looked way out of his depth.
Hopefully first night nerves and he'll improve.

Lombardo's hair 16-08-2017 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatGonzo (Post 13782402)
The second goal came from him not getting off the ground to challenge Mounie, the 3rd he is holding Mounie 40- yards from goal and then he is nowhere. I think Scott Dann should have been taking more responsibility for Mounie.

When I first read this I thought he'd fallen over. Now realise you meant he should have jumped. I also think Hennessey should be more proactive in anticipating crosses. He is alway rooted to his line Even if he just came out and missued it it would probably put the attacker off. I think he's scared of being clattered

Lombardo's hair 16-08-2017 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Smith (Post 13782522)
Do you believe we're going to change our entire defence in one transfer window?

My understanding is that BFS wanted to implement a back 3 throughout the club, from Academy to 1st XI. But he wasn't planning to do that overnight.

when can you implement such a change? The only way to do so is by playing that way. Chelsea did change over night last season. I look at Saturdays defeat as one similar to the Sunderland 0 4. They like Huddersfield were flattered by the scoreline. A better ref and we may have got at least a draw. If wilf had taken an early chance who knows what would have happened. Football is unpredictable a bad decision a good day for opposition great saves all distort results.

Bobby Smith 16-08-2017 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair (Post 13782566)
when can you implement such a change? The only way to do so is by playing that way. Chelsea did change over night last season. I look at Saturdays defeat as one similar to the Sunderland 0 4. They like Huddersfield were flattered by the scoreline. A better ref and we may have got at least a draw. If wilf had taken an early chance who knows what would have happened. Football is unpredictable a bad decision a good day for opposition great saves all distort results.

I don't agree with your assessment but with respect I think you've missed the point. Two weeks left of the current transfer window and the OP suggested that we needed to get in new players bar the left back. I might be wrong but I don't think that's going to happen.

jimmy the gent 16-08-2017 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13782243)
Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.

Pathetic to boo like that.

This is why the national team is so poor.

Three nil down and knocking it around the centre circle for four or five pointless 6 yarders, then back to the keeper is pretty f*cking piss weak when you're three nil down at home on the opening game of the season, to be fair.

jimmy the gent 16-08-2017 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair (Post 13782566)
when can you implement such a change? The only way to do so is by playing that way. Chelsea did change over night last season. I look at Saturdays defeat as one similar to the Sunderland 0 4. They like Huddersfield were flattered by the scoreline. A better ref and we may have got at least a draw. If wilf had taken an early chance who knows what would have happened. Football is unpredictable a bad decision a good day for opposition great saves all distort results.

Playng two debutants barely out their teens at CB, a limited Full Back at Right Midfield, after he's only had 20mins first team football pre season, and not preparing a coherent strategy based on your oppo's weakness', all had a lot more affect on that game than the ref and a couple of their players playing well.

minch1 16-08-2017 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPalace23 (Post 13781639)
Tomkins has over 200 games of Premier League experience.

Last season we looked good with Sakho and Tomkins at the back. I'm a big fan of both. They were our best two centre backs last season. I like Dann but for me personally he needs to be a squad player like Puncheon.

As for Rediewald he has not done anything to earn the shirt, other than being Dutch and joining from a big club.

He was just as culpable for their third goal as Tomkins who had only just come on.

Tomkins and Sakho at the back in a 4-5-1 formation going forward Mr De Boer.

Fosu Mensah like Rediewald is a good player but they need time to adapt to the club and the Premier League. They should be squad players. They aren't good enough or experienced enough to walk into our team.

I agree with everything you said except the Dann comment. Dann like Tomkins has a lot of experience and has scored some crucial goals. I agree we need to think again about the "if he's Dutch he must be good and ready to go straight in" . Last Saturday showed that he wasn't ready and he should have been introduced gradually. Leaving Tomkins on the bench for the opener was ridiculous. Just as leaving Townsend on the bench was. The more I think about it and the consequential defeat the more galling it becomes. Bbs

Penstone Eagle 16-08-2017 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy the gent (Post 13782586)
Playng two debutants barely out their teens at CB, a limited Full Back at Right Midfield, after he's only had 20mins first team football pre season, and not preparing a coherent strategy based on your oppo's weakness', all had a lot more affect on that game than the ref and a couple of their players playing well.

Spot on.

Naive from FdB.

Mr Palace 16-08-2017 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy the gent (Post 13782584)
Three nil down and knocking it around the centre circle for four or five pointless 6 yarders, then back to the keeper is pretty f*cking piss weak when you're three nil down at home on the opening game of the season, to be fair.

This is why possession based football like this is boring and pointless. Very few teams can play possession football the way it needs to be played. We aren't one of them - unless we sign 5-6 quality players who are significantly more technical than the majority of players we have.

James SG 16-08-2017 05:35 PM

A 20 year old centre back has had one bad game along with 9 of his teammates on the day. Give the lad some time!

Stellavista 16-08-2017 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James SG (Post 13782918)
A 20 year old centre back has had one bad game along with 9 of his teammates on the day. Give the lad some time!

Maybe,but after watching the HK games and the Huddersfield match, I'm not convinced he's a Premier League centre half. I understand he can get away with it in the Dutch League , which is about a competitive as the Scottish top division, but I think De Boer has - like overseas managers before him - seriously underestimated the rigours of the Premier League. It has skill, but is also fast and pretty brutal. I still think he'll either be gone by New Year, or we're in real danger of going down.
I'm back to hoping there are three worse teams.....

bodger 16-08-2017 06:58 PM

We need a leader to organize the back line that would give Riedewald half a chance. Dann as the senior man should be the one who grasps the nettle.

CaptainCharisma 16-08-2017 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stellavista (Post 13782953)
Maybe,but after watching the HK games and the Huddersfield match, I'm not convinced he's a Premier League centre half. I understand he can get away with it in the Dutch League , which is about a competitive as the Scottish top division, but I think De Boer has - like overseas managers before him - seriously underestimated the rigours of the Premier League. It has skill, but is also fast and pretty brutal. I still think he'll either be gone by New Year, or we're in real danger of going down.
I'm back to hoping there are three worse teams.....

So after the games in Hong Kong you aren't convinced he is a premier league centre back. You mean those two games he didn't play in because he was in England signing his deal?

The key to me is the central defender of the three. Jairo and TFM will grow as a unit with a strong leader between them. Sakho would be perfect for that. Scott Dann is not. We saw last season as captain and against Huddersfield, he is not vocal enough, he is not controlling that back line. He also sadly repeatedly shows that he is not the quality he once was and looks vulnerable.

Martin H 16-08-2017 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stellavista (Post 13782953)
Maybe,but after watching the HK games and the Huddersfield match, I'm not convinced he's a Premier League centre half. I understand he can get away with it in the Dutch League , which is about a competitive as the Scottish top division, but I think De Boer has - like overseas managers before him - seriously underestimated the rigours of the Premier League. It has skill, but is also fast and pretty brutal. I still think he'll either be gone by New Year, or we're in real danger of going down.
I'm back to hoping there are three worse teams.....

He didn't play in HK - assume you mean Metz where he got 45 mins or Schalke? Thought he played OK in those matches.

jimmy the gent 16-08-2017 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodger (Post 13783043)
We need a leader to organize the back line that would give Riedewald half a chance. Dann as the senior man should be the one who grasps the nettle.

As we saw last year, Dann is not a natural leader. Him next to 20 and 19 year olds with pretty much zero Premier League experience, in a formation and role that he's not used to, is asking way too much. Especially when we have Tomkins, a proven premier league CB with over 200 appearances under his belt, sitting on the bench. Both arrogant and naive of De Boer IMHO.

Harry Holmesdale 16-08-2017 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy the gent (Post 13782584)
Three nil down and knocking it around the centre circle for four or five pointless 6 yarders, then back to the keeper is pretty f*cking piss weak when you're three nil down at home on the opening game of the season, to be fair.

The boos for a backpass were after about 15 mins

To play him Mensah and RLC on the first day was a bad move imo, but to boo tje bloke was poor from the self proclaimed best home support in the league

El Aguila 16-08-2017 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13783268)
The boos for a backpass were after about 15 mins

To play him Mensah and RLC on the first day was a bad move imo, but to boo tje bloke was poor from the self proclaimed best home support in the league

Indeed, the fans were putting pressure on the passes at the back at 0-0. It doesn't help. It's also slightly ridiculous.

aj4england 16-08-2017 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy the gent (Post 13783200)
As we saw last year, Dann is not a natural leader. Him next to 20 and 19 year olds with pretty much zero Premier League experience, in a formation and role that he's not used to, is asking way too much. Especially when we have Tomkins, a proven premier league CB with over 200 appearances under his belt, sitting on the bench. Both arrogant and naive of De Boer IMHO.

Agreed

aj4england 16-08-2017 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13783268)
The boos for a backpass were after about 15 mins

To play him Mensah and RLC on the first day was a bad move imo, but to boo tje bloke was poor from the self proclaimed best home support in the league

Only boos heard in the Whitehorse was when at 3 nil down Jairo played a back pass after turning back and not being under pressure

jimmy the gent 16-08-2017 10:01 PM

Also, no slight on the much maligned Hennessey as it's not his game, but what is the point of 'the best passer in dutch football' knocking it back 40 yards to one of the worst goalkeepers at distributing the ball? Hardly playing to the team's strengths is it.

Stellavista 17-08-2017 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 13783056)
He didn't play in HK - assume you mean Metz where he got 45 mins or Schalke?

Yes, sorry. At the very least, I don't think he's ready for this division yet.
Certainly not as part of that particular three at the back. They looked less than convincing together, and he looked liked the weakest link to me.
Ignore me on the HK games - I was in hospital and drugged up to the eyeballs while watching those.... :(

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 17-08-2017 12:59 AM

I think his performance on Saturday is certainly a worry. Funds appear to be limited this window and he is our biggest outlay by far and only permanent transfer so far.

And after just looking back at the game again, he really was close to awful. Hopefully it is not just FDB who will learn from Saturday, it will have been a chastening debut for Riedewald too. I'm not writing him of at all but it was certainly a very poor debut.

danpalace07 17-08-2017 01:06 AM

The booing backwards passes needs to stop asap, the bloke's 20 ffs. Would you boo Kaikai or Dreher if they did the same?

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 17-08-2017 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danpalace07 (Post 13783417)
The booing backwards passes needs to stop asap, the bloke's 20 ffs. Would you boo Kaikai or Dreher if they did the same?

Completely agree with that.

Timbo 17-08-2017 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danpalace07 (Post 13783417)
The booing backwards passes needs to stop asap, the bloke's 20 ffs. Would you boo Kaikai or Dreher if they did the same?

No prob with not booing JR, yet, but the comparison with the other players is misleading because they didn't cost 8m+

Eagle's Nest 17-08-2017 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danpalace07 (Post 13783417)
The booing backwards passes needs to stop asap, the bloke's 20 ffs. Would you boo Kaikai or Dreher if they did the same?

I remember two occasions when we tried to pasd from the back.

The first was the Dowie years and I think it was our first game back in the Premier League - Fitz Hall was playing - and the booing happened within seconds. People were shouting "Forward! Forward!".

The second was when we were playing Swansea under Holloway and we got played off the park.

Nigelbrag 17-08-2017 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHeagle (Post 13782497)
Where does the width come from in that team? Assuming we're playing a similar system, it's more square pegs in round holes. And if we change the system, only one player in that side can offer us any natural width.

To be honest some have this obsession that we must play with Two wide players, which was excellent whilst Zaha and Bolasie were tearing defences apart, but that is no longer the case even with Townsend as replacement. If we had Central midfielders who were able to pick an accurate pass to play in the wide men it would be effective, but we don't unfortunately, so it needs another approach to make the team more effective.
Just look at our results to realise the system leaves us open, also take a look at the Top Six teams to see if they play with genuine wingers, they simply use Wing Backs in some cases, or with a more compact midfield playing short passing which gives a better balance.
Whilst we continue to play with a "novice" Back Three as we saw on Saturday and get opened up so easily, and with the so called Wing Backs of Ward and Van Arnholt seemingly "lost" and leaving spaces that were exploited easily as we saw for the 2nd goal when Mooy left Ward (not with pace) but clever movement and crossed for the headed goal.
My reasoning for the system i chose is it makes us more of a solid unit, with Luka sweeping up in front of the Back Three to provide stability and cut out the spaces, but also as a link with the Midfield to provide them with short simple passes that don't keep going astray. Finally with a Front Three of Zaha-Benteke -Van Persie which for a change would then make us a goal threat, but the formation can also be flexible if need be into allowing Zaha a wandering "free winger" role to cause mayhem and much harder to mark, and with say RVP playing just behind where he can be deadly or alongside CB, or Benteke as the lone striker.
If we choose to play without Wide players, then it simply means adapting and playing more of a short passing game and balls to feet as we see with the Top teams, or some lower teams like Bournemouth, Leicester etc etc.
The dream of having terrifying Wingers that was effective disappeared when YB left, so we now need to re-adjust accordingly if we are to stop being defensively exploited as easily as we do currently, Big Sam saw the reason for a change and we know how effective it proved to be.

spt1978 17-08-2017 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danpalace07 (Post 13783417)
The booing backwards passes needs to stop asap, the bloke's 20 ffs. Would you boo Kaikai or Dreher if they did the same?

Wilf, Benteke etc wouldn't get grief for doing it either.

eddieskyclad 17-08-2017 08:17 AM

Think the difficulty with the backpasses were the fans were thinking counterattack, break and get forward whereas Reidewald was thinking let's take our time and be patient. Be interesting to see if the 2 cultures can meld into something better...

Garfy 17-08-2017 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodger (Post 13783043)
We need a leader to organize the back line that would give Riedewald half a chance. Dann as the senior man should be the one who grasps the nettle.

Absolutely agree. I thought Dann's leadership and organising was very poor. He's the one who should be taking most the grief for our defensive performance.

Sir.S.C Remembered 17-08-2017 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13782243)
Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.

Pathetic to boo like that.

This is why the national team is so poor.

Pathetic to boo, but bore off regarding the national team comment. Dutch national team are hardly good.

Jose plays 'English' style football. In fact he plays Big Sam style football and he wins trophies at the highest level. The idea that foreign football is somehow superior is nonsense. Our youth teams showed that this summer too.

Possession for possession sake in irrelevant areas is pointless. There is a balance to be struck and he was not under pressure from the striker on many occasions.

I'd personally just question what Palace fans who showed frustration expected. If any of them had done their research on FDB's style, his idol's style (LVG) and his style at Ajax then they would have accepted that. They just assumed as he's foreign and likes passing that this equated to attacking passing football. It is possession football but not particularly exciting high tempo or direct stuff. You can't be expected about his appointment then moan about those things. Like being excited about Jose but then complaining when he puts Fellaini upfront.

CP-RJW 17-08-2017 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddieskyclad (Post 13783575)
Think the difficulty with the backpasses were the fans were thinking counterattack.

Because that would work against Huddersfield at home.

Neckinger Eagle 17-08-2017 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Holmesdale (Post 13782243)
Booing passes to the keeper is so British its nuts. Keep the ball is what its all about.


Actually, this is not true. It isn't about keeping the ball at all. It's about not losing the ball before you have done something effective with it.

It's not about possession, it's about preventing turnover.

There was always some truth behind Charles Hughes and his 'few passes the better philosophy'. It just got interpreted as 'long ball'. Most goals are scored from moves of very few passes. That's because the opposition have been turned over near their goal.

So ponging about around our own penalty box when pressing is the in thing is just asking for trouble in my opinion.

Equally, the higher the number of passes the more likely an individual move results in a goal. I ask you though, do we look like a team capable of emulating Barcelona?

Regarding the booing, I think it is poor form to boo any Palace player but Jairo is De Boer's tool and how else can the crowd display their displeasure at his failure to manage the game?

WorthingEagle 17-08-2017 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP-RJW (Post 13783873)
Because that would work against Huddersfield at home.

Well it's got more of a chance against a team who were actively pressing high and snapping into tackles than the ball being at Hennessey's feet. How many times in our history do you think Palace have passed the ball all the way up the pitch from Goalkeeper to Striker and scored?

Tomo 17-08-2017 03:51 PM

If we were going back to the keeper, then starting again, I’d be more happy. But ultimately, we were going nowhere with the ball, and eventually it would be booted out for a goalkick.

It’s more to do with what the rest of the team are doing in front. There were times when we looked OK doing it, but was few and far in between.

jaspercpfc 19-08-2017 01:05 PM

dropped or injured? not even named on the bench for todays game.

jaspercpfc 19-08-2017 01:18 PM

Injured

Frank de Boer: I have had to make 2 changes due to injury. We need to learn lessons from last week and be focussed on all areas of our game.

wrightchipvcfc 19-08-2017 01:19 PM

If he ain't injured taking him out of the firing line longterm might be a good move he had a nightmare last week but won't be first palace player to have not great start but go on to be good players for the club.Premier league prob faster and more physical then anything his used to playing in take time to get use to it

Yoda 19-08-2017 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaspercpfc (Post 13787657)
Injured

Frank de Boer: I have had to make 2 changes due to injury. We need to learn lessons from last week and be focussed on all areas of our game.

Possibly FdB didn't want to be specific and wanted to give Jairo a bit more time to adjust? Easier to be a bit vague about an injury for now.

Personally I thought fans were frustrated with him not simply because of the back passing, because obviously back passing is sometimes the right thing to do. I think it was because he'd become so predictable that the Huddersfield player knew what he was doing and was able to press up on him every time.

He'd receive it from Wayne and take so long to move it forward that backwards became his only option. And then next time he and Wayne would repeat this again.

So, Jairo needs to pass sooner, think more quickly and have more options (not all of this is entirely his fault...the midfield needed to offer him more, which Cabaye will).

He's not the first young player to need time to adjust to the speed of the Prem.

gadford4th 19-08-2017 02:59 PM

Or, he's injured.

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 21-08-2017 11:21 AM

FDB said he had 'growing pains'? Sounds a bit strange/ unusual. Maybe it is a translation thing but I do wonder if he was taken out of the firing line after his woeful debut?

MFBias 21-08-2017 11:55 AM

I initially thought he was dropped and it was it was called an injury to cover him but when we only had Kelly on the bench it seems more likely he did pick up a knock.

Dont know why Delaney wasnt on the bench. Surely you need options if you have 3 CBs starting.

Owngoal 21-08-2017 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 13791364)
FDB said he had 'growing pains'? Sounds a bit strange/ unusual. Maybe it is a translation thing but I do wonder if he was taken out of the firing line after his woeful debut?

Growing pains happen and he is 20 - may be taller yet. FDB said Tuesday may be too early but Saturday a possibility. His passing record is the impressive thing about his career so far which we need.

Zulu84 21-08-2017 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owngoal (Post 13791473)
Growing pains happen and he is 20 - may be taller yet. FDB said Tuesday may be too early but Saturday a possibility. His passing record is the impressive thing about his career so far which we need.

What we need right now is a defender that gives more resistance than a wet tissue, Tomkins should be the starter for the foreseeable future

Shipp Ahoy! 21-08-2017 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulu84 (Post 13791483)
What we need right now is a defender that gives more resistance than a wet tissue, Tomkins should be the starter for the foreseeable future

Based on one game.

Bravo :rolleyes:

Jim Cannon 21-08-2017 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 13791364)
FDB said he had 'growing pains'? Sounds a bit strange/ unusual. Maybe it is a translation thing but I do wonder if he was taken out of the firing line after his woeful debut?

That was my thought when he didn't feature on sat

Zulu84 21-08-2017 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shipp Ahoy! (Post 13791500)
Based on one game.

Bravo :rolleyes:

Yes, based on one game Tomkins is what we need right now. In the future as he develops through sub appearances, training and general adaption to English football/ Premier league that may change.

Mr Palace 21-08-2017 12:47 PM

I think it was a sensible move from FDB to take Riedewald out of the firing line. He can come back to the bench on Saturday and build his understanding and confidence from there. Tomkins is a very good defender and didn't deserve to lose his place anyway.

Shamone 21-08-2017 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owngoal (Post 13791473)
His passing record is the impressive thing about his career so far which we need.

My passing rate would be 100% if I rolled it back to the keeper everytime I got it too :D

Lombardo's hair 21-08-2017 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrightchipvcfc (Post 13787659)
If he ain't injured taking him out of the firing line longterm might be a good move he had a nightmare last week but won't be first palace player to have not great start but go on to be good players for the club.Premier league prob faster and more physical then anything his used to playing in take time to get use to it

TBF it's the ones that have had great debuts that end up being mediocre. Remember zGabbiadini looked very good in first game. Mind you I disn't think he did that badly for us. Dont think coppell and alan smith played to his strengths. Same for ward and Murray


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.