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View Poll Results: Penalty - Yes or No?
Yes it was penalty, referee was correct. 47 47.96%
No penalty, ref was wrong. 51 52.04%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 16-07-2018, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
The only time you see a ‘deliberate’ handball is when someone tries to stop a goal going in.
Clearly not true.

Players handball the ball whenever they think they can get away with it and they will gain an advantage from it.

See Maradona, Henry, etc, etc.
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  #22  
Old 16-07-2018, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
Clearly not true.

Players handball the ball whenever they think they can get away with it and they will gain an advantage from it.

See Maradona, Henry, etc, etc.
In their own box i meant.
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  #23  
Old 17-07-2018, 04:58 AM
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Yes, it's a penalty. He moves his hand down to stop the ball.

The reason he moves his hand is instinct. The player in front of him moves so he has to adjust, and that means moving his arm.

Requiring something to be deliberate is a minefield. Most of the time I don't think they can prove what was intentional and what was not. It's not like Suarez saving on the line which was clearly intentional. This was instinctive and unfortunate. I don't think he means to slap the ball away, but with the movement down to stop the ball, they have to give it.
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  #24  
Old 17-07-2018, 09:34 AM
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Someone can look away from the ball but use their arms and hands to make themselves as big an obstacle as possible. That's a deliberate action regardless of whether they knew the ball would be hitting them or not.

Take Pique vs Russia. Looking the wrong way but with his arm up above his head. It was a penalty and so was the Croatian one in the final.
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  #25  
Old 17-07-2018, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Nash View Post
Yes, it's a penalty. He moves his hand down to stop the ball.

The reason he moves his hand is instinct. The player in front of him moves so he has to adjust, and that means moving his arm.

Requiring something to be deliberate is a minefield. Most of the time I don't think they can prove what was intentional and what was not. It's not like Suarez saving on the line which was clearly intentional. This was instinctive and unfortunate. I don't think he means to slap the ball away, but with the movement down to stop the ball, they have to give it.
Agree 100% with you, Daniel.

I think it's a penalty, but the word 'deliberate' really muddies the waters. The dictionary definition of deliberate is 'done consciously and intentionally', so I suppose those saying 'no pen' are correct as I think it's an instinctive move (so done sub-consciously and unintentionally?), but Suarez blocking the ball on the line in 2010 against Ghana was also instinctive. For most incidents involving a defender and contact with the hand, there is surely not enough time for a 'conscious and intentional' decision to be made. I think if the hand moves into the line of the ball, no matter if instinctive or deliberate, it should be penalty.

Last edited by PalaceForever; 17-07-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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  #26  
Old 17-07-2018, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
It is more a VAR discussion generally, but it's similar to rugby union replays on whether a player should be carded - for this sort of thing, the ref should make the final decision on real time speed not in some sort of super slow mo. Look at every angle going but slowing it down gives a false impression.

The answer is it should not have been given. It may well have been a deliberate handball, but the ref didn't give it and as seen by here and elsewhere (and his own time spent looking and re-looking), it wasn't that 'obvious' enough to overturn his decision.
Agreed, I said on a different thread that the slow motion makes it look like more of a deliberate movement towards the ball than it probably was.

In this instance it's clear that he didn't see the ball hit him in real time, because he gave a goal-kick, so should have the opportunity to see it again, but in real time speed.
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  #27  
Old 17-07-2018, 10:28 AM
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It was a penalty.
The player made a reflexive movement toward the ball, end of debate.

Alan Shearer talks out of his arse as does Gary Neville.
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  #28  
Old 17-07-2018, 10:48 AM
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100% a penalty.
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  #29  
Old 17-07-2018, 12:15 PM
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My view was the Croat player slapped his hand down, which is a strange movement to make when you are defending in your own area, Even after looking at the video, the ref needed to go back to look again, which suggests he was still uncertain.

Penalty for me, hand moved towards ball.
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  #30  
Old 17-07-2018, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
True.

But I was also surprised at how certain Shearer was that it wasn't a penalty. It looked to me like a deliberate movement with the hand. I don't believe any ref would have spotted it real time because of the position of the players.

That's how I saw it after a few replays, that his arm movement seems natural enough, but that his hand moves towards the ball. I didn't think it was a penalty immediately, but the referee was also wrong in giving a goal kick (should at the least been a corner).

Hand seemed to move directly towards the ball, rather than just down, and shapes itself to slap the ball. The ref clearly took a number of watches and advice before making a decision - Which is the point of VAR.
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  #31  
Old 17-07-2018, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceForever View Post
Agree 100% with you, Daniel.

I think it's a penalty, but the word 'deliberate' really muddies the waters. The dictionary definition of deliberate is 'done consciously and intentionally', so I suppose those saying 'no pen' are correct as I think it's an instinctive move (so done sub-consciously and unintentionally?), but Suarez blocking the ball on the line in 2010 against Ghana was also instinctive. For most incidents involving a defender and contact with the hand, there is surely not enough time for a 'conscious and intentional' decision to be made. I think if the hand moves into the line of the ball, no matter if instinctive or deliberate, it should be penalty.
Deliberate, consciously and intentionally aren't definable from an external perspective, they're subjective experiences. A referee can never claim to be certain of intent, only that it seems more likely.

I think a lot of pundits, looking at it, were right, that it wasn't a penalty before VAR, and would never be given, because the Referee didn't have the option of watching several times, before coming to a conclusion.

Also very little in football is deliberate, usually time to think, is what results in the defender getting the ball, or missing the tackle and the keeper picking the ball out of the net.
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  #32  
Old 17-07-2018, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
In their own box i meant.
No, you do get incidents of players handling the ball in their own area, and no doubt that players also do training in order to make it look accidental as well. Just like players aren't supposed to grapple and pull other players shirts etc and do all the time.
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  #33  
Old 17-07-2018, 07:14 PM
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Not a penalty. The ball was stuck at such pace and from such a close distance, that's it's very difficult to reasonably conclude that he blocked that ball intentionally, despite the movement of his hand.

VAR is supposed to overturn "clear and obvious" errors, which this wasn't as evidenced by how long it took the ref to come to a conclusion. If there's sufficient doubt, referees should err on the side of not giving the penalty imo.
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  #34  
Old 17-07-2018, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchyAndalou View Post
Not a penalty. The ball was stuck at such pace and from such a close distance, that's it's very difficult to reasonably conclude that he blocked that ball intentionally, despite the movement of his hand.

VAR is supposed to overturn "clear and obvious" errors, which this wasn't as evidenced by how long it took the ref to come to a conclusion. If there's sufficient doubt, referees should err on the side of not giving the penalty imo.

Yep, he would need ninja type reactions for that to be intentional.
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  #35  
Old 17-07-2018, 07:30 PM
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All their attempts to simplify rules have, in fact, made them more complicated and VAR is acceptance of that and the fact that players cheat.

When I started playing, it was handball if you gained an unfair advantage.

Considering a deliberate foul is supposed to be a yellow card and all handballs are now supposed to be deliberate, surely all handballs should come with a yellow card.

It's all bollocks.
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  #36  
Old 17-07-2018, 07:32 PM
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Voted no penalty. Take VAR out of the equation and it would not, or should not have been given.

Interesting that the poll shows basically a 50/50 split. Just shows how difficultly it is to call.
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  #37  
Old 17-07-2018, 07:43 PM
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And therefore that it was not clear enough to award the penalty.
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Old 17-07-2018, 07:58 PM
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Sometimes I just wish a referee would show a bit more respect for place and time; have more of a sense of agency and narrative, especially in a world cup final. I'm not saying toss a coin before the game, but I think a referee should show a different kind of common-sense; one that regards and is designed to promote the spectacle of a world cup final. He didn't do that on Sunday, and that's what I'm mostly disappointed for.
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