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  #1  
Old 28-07-2019, 06:45 PM
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Hong Kong protests

Not sure how much news of events in HK is reaching the UK, given the horror show of Brexit and political turmoil at home.

The government here, grown used to getting its own pro-Beijing way by nudging authoritarian changes slowly-slowly, imagined it could pass a new law permitting extradition to China by relying on the perceived apathy of the people to protest, the apparent failure of the occupy movement in 2014 and the success of measures implemented in the past few years to stuff the legislative council (LegCo) with pro-Beijing lawmakers and ban or jail “pro Hong Kong” candidates.

1M then a few weeks later 2M people (over ľ of the population) rocked up to peacefully protest the extradition law in June, but when Carrie Lam, the HK Chief Executive, dismissed the protesters’ demands and has refused to compromise whatsoever or even discuss current events (save for weak Chinese Communist Party (CCP) approved statements), an escalating cycle of violence has ensued including the invasion and trashing of LegCo (imagine parliament being stormed) and now every couple of days major clashes between police and thousands of young protesters at locations all over the territory.

China has badly misjudged the depth of feeling in HK amongst ordinary folk and the sense amongst mostly young people who do not identify with the nation of China and perceive diminishing prospects for themselves – 22 years into the 50 years of “one country two systems” protecting HK’s independent judiciary and freedoms (such as speech and protest) under the 1984 Joint Declaration between the UK and China which the CCP has now declared a “historical document”. Unlike the Occupy movement which split opinions down the middle, there’s perhaps 80% of the population, of all ages, who support the “anti-extradition” movement (with 20% preferring the status quo or adopting a “China will do what the **** it wants anyway” position).

For the CCP the primary goal is self-preservation, with HK supposedly the shining example of “one country two systems” that will deliver the secondary goal of unification with Taiwan. As the China economy begins to slide there’s a feeling that events in HK provide a convenient distraction from this and events in Xinjiang. Whilst Britain (and the US e.g. Marco Rubio) have made noises supportive of the protests the expectation is that realpolitik will win and HK is essentially on it own. The CCP / HK government doesn’t appear to know what to do (Carrie Lam has been studiously hiding for weeks now – imagine a national crisis and Boris not even appearing in public). Do they send in the PLA? Trigger Tiananmen #2? Hope for protest fatigue and the problem goes away? Come to the negotiating table prepared to listen and make concessions?

Uncertain times in HK as nobody knows how this is going to play out.

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Old 28-07-2019, 06:57 PM
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Thanks for that. I think we’re getting good coverage of what’s going on mainly in the papers, but can’t speak for the ex UK.

Stay safe.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:06 PM
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It’s being extensively covered on tv news...

A couple of weeks ago China warned the Uk it’s nothing to do with us so keep out of it!
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:06 PM
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Coverage is actually pretty good here, particularly considering the excrement raining down on us from the current domestic shit storm.

It's gone from plain dire here to amoebic dysentery.

I watch with interest what will happen in Hong Kong. Knowing how authoritarian Beijing is and how little respect they have for freedom, human rights, justice and human rights I fear the worst.

I was in China in 1989 and have seen it with my own eyes.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:09 PM
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Do the Chinese authorities care about international criticism overs human rights? I think they did in the run up to the Olympics. Those pictures of triads attacking demonstrators seemed bad.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:13 PM
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Thanks for that. I think weíre getting good coverage of whatís going on mainly in the papers, but canít speak for the ex UK.

Stay safe.
Thanks Maz. We're all quite safe - HK "riots" are very different affairs to UK or many other places - there's no looting, there's literal police brother vs protester brother situations, mutiny within the civil service (and the police being used as a political battering ram).

I can see reasonably good articles in mainstream UK press To view the link you have to Register or Login, but I worry that until people start to get killed the world won't really give much of a shit.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:16 PM
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Itís being extensively covered on tv news...

A couple of weeks ago China warned the Uk itís nothing to do with us so keep out of it!
Thanks good to know. I'd be interested to understand the editorial line on this - Trump and Johnson both seem to have done the realpolitik thing of siding with China over HK.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
I watch with interest what will happen in Hong Kong. Knowing how authoritarian Beijing is and how little respect they have for freedom, human rights, justice and human rights I fear the worst.

I was in China in 1989 and have seen it with my own eyes.
Beijing is ratcheting up the authoritarianism. It is shit scared of losing it's grip on power - all the while the economy was booming and people became rich it could stand off somewhat. But now....

1989 must have been scary, I didn't go to China until 97.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:21 PM
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What's the story here then?

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Old 28-07-2019, 07:28 PM
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Do the Chinese authorities care about international criticism overs human rights?
Of course - in so far as it endangers their self-preservation - so generally not very much. However the HK government, and the HK police care very much. And they're none too happy at being used as pawns by the CCP at the moment.

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Those pictures of triads attacking demonstrators seemed bad.
Today links were uncovered between the triads and the CCP liaison office - not surprisingly given the triads would have most to lose from a change to the (slowly changing) status quo - i.e. triads were in cahoots with the government / police. That's not the surprising part though - what really hits home was last Sunday when the police retreated from an entire district, closed the doors of the police station, refused to answer thousands of 999 calls, and were filmed laughing at the TV screens showing innocent women and children getting smashed up with bamboo and batons by triad thugs. Once society descends to the level where the police no longer see themselves as there for the people they are supposed to serve the game is pretty much over.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:34 PM
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What's the story here then?

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These are low-level triad members who pre-arranged for the police to leave a New Territories town - Yuen Long - so they could attack protesters who were returning home from HK Island earlier in the day and, probably less intended, innocent women and children wearing the wrong coloured t-shirts. The triad situation is complex - away from the main commercial areas of HK the triads and police have always had a cosy relationship - but seldom do regular folk get caught up in triad violence (you don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg etc.).

The violence in itself is dispicable, the breakdown in regular policing who let them get on with it has massively stoked the flames over the past week.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:36 PM
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One thought I hear is that the people of HK are being set up. If the current administration appears to lose its ability to govern it makes the political space for the CCP to establish a more authoritarian regime.
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Old 28-07-2019, 07:41 PM
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One thought I hear is that the people of HK are being set up. If the current administration appears to lose its ability to govern it makes the political space for the CCP to establish a more authoritarian regime.
We are well aware of this. The current government has pretty much lost its authority already. Question is what change comes now. I have little doubt that many people will stand in front of tanks and be prepared to die if the tanks are sent in. The strength of feeling runs deep, and the sense of Hong Kong identity is a powerful one, which people who perceive their futures being ripped away from them are prepared to defend.
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Old 29-07-2019, 07:24 AM
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The trial attack was baffling. What exactly did they think they would achieve from that?

This line from a Guardian story is revealing too:

"Independent book sellers have disappeared from the city, to reappear in mainland China facing charges, a point critics of the extradition bill often make."

Seems that they're already deporting people to China for political reasons.
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Old 29-07-2019, 08:10 AM
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The trial attack was baffling. What exactly did they think they would achieve from that?

This line from a Guardian story is revealing too:

"Independent book sellers have disappeared from the city, to reappear in mainland China facing charges, a point critics of the extradition bill often make."

Seems that they're already deporting people to China for political reasons.
This happened a few years ago. An independent bookshop in Hong Kong was selling books that you couldn't buy in China, including some critical of the Chinese government. One night, the book sellers were bundled into a car and taken to China. It seems some people in China did not respect the 'one country, two systems' rule.
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Old 29-07-2019, 09:19 AM
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This is what we have to look forward to in England soon enough.
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Old 29-07-2019, 10:36 AM
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Some of the goings on remind me of the really bad days in the north of Ireland. Rozzer turning a blind eye to attacks from thugs, or being complicit. Firing baton rounds into protesters. It doesn't look good.
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Old 29-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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Thanks good to know. I'd be interested to understand the editorial line on this - Trump and Johnson both seem to have done the realpolitik thing of siding with China over HK.
3rd July : bbc.co.uk ( I canít seem to copy link at moment)

China has warned the UK not to "interfere in its domestic affairs" amid a growing diplomatic row over the recent protests in Hong Kong.

Its UK ambassador said relations had been "damaged" by comments by Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and others backing the demonstrators' actions.
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Old 29-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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3rd July : bbc.co.uk ( I canít seem to copy link at moment)

China has warned the UK not to "interfere in its domestic affairs" amid a growing diplomatic row over the recent protests in Hong Kong.

Its UK ambassador said relations had been "damaged" by comments by Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and others backing the demonstrators' actions.
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Old 29-07-2019, 02:11 PM
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I can only imagine that China is working out when it can get away with another Tianamin Square with the least fall out in terms of consequence.

Astonishing how quiet the ex-Foriegn Secretary and premier leader of the Nationalist Bandwagon is about people who have British Citizenship (if they were born pre 1997).
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