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  #121  
Old 05-04-2020, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
A stark contrast to the Prime Minister, indeed.
Absolutely - and he is a "Sir" rather than a barefaced lier
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  #122  
Old 05-04-2020, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
I know there are a large number of people on here who don't want to acknowledge this but politics in the "West" is generally moving in the anti-establishment direction.Mostly this means moving right and so far from an electoral standpoint the left are a failing alternative.The right are getting their message across in a way that we are just failing to at the moment.Boris basically won by making himself the anti-establishment candidate,accusing Corbyn and remain supporting MPs of blocking Brexit.Trump,the rise of the right in Austria,Germany,Hungary etc.Even in France,an establishment figure like Macron ran an anti-establishment campaign,distancing himself from the traditional parties to win.

So my question is this.Against this backdrop,how is Starmer going to win?
I suspect that backdrop is about to change, radically.
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  #123  
Old 05-04-2020, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I suspect that backdrop is about to change, radically.
You could be right. Ironically at a time when left wing answers will be needed and could be more popular. And labour is stuck with a centrist leader who is a manikin dummy.
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  #124  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:12 AM
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Cockneyrebel I was interested to read that you want to see an end to capitalism and that for you is what socialism is.

In my view that makes you a communist supporter not a Labour supporter.

I see Labour as a movement that came from workers wanting to curb the power of capitalism and to have a fairer share of that power and the fruits it bears but not to overthrow it entirely.

I am not saying I am right, I am not a Labour party historian or even member after all.
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  #125  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He is charisma free and I think Boris Johnson will make mincemeat of him.
My money is on Johnson spending more time hiding in the fridge.
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  #126  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:18 AM
Johnybegood Johnybegood is offline
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
I know there are a large number of people on here who don't want to acknowledge this but politics in the "West" is generally moving in the anti-establishment direction.Mostly this means moving right and so far from an electoral standpoint the left are a failing alternative.The right are getting their message across in a way that we are just failing to at the moment.Boris basically won by making himself the anti-establishment candidate,accusing Corbyn and remain supporting MPs of blocking Brexit.Trump,the rise of the right in Austria,Germany,Hungary etc.Even in France,an establishment figure like Macron ran an anti-establishment campaign,distancing himself from the traditional parties to win.

So my question is this.Against this backdrop,how is Starmer going to win?
A good question.
The short term outlook for me is that Boris will be exposed as the liar/chancer that he is. The failure to clamp down earlier on the virus has caused not only unnecessary deaths but also a longer economic disaster. It has also shown up how key workers (nhs, shop assistants, bus drivers, care providers etc) have been undervalued by successive governments but particularly since 2010 austerity which froze wages of key workers but reduced Corp tax (increased dividends) from 28% to 18%....doesn't look very nice now does it.
More money for the NHS and a fair living wage for all workers, with affordable housing and better public services will be demanded by those impacted by this I.e. nearly everyone
Medium term will inevitably see income tax rises, wealth taxes, higher Corp tax etc but also huge bond issuance to pay to rebuild the economy. I would also not be surprised to see windfall taxes on banks and a financial transaction tax on the city. It will slowly dawn on people that austerity and right wing capitalism is a busted flush.......enter Kier Starmer....
The right wing populist governments (Trump, Boris, Bolsanaro, Erdogan etc) will fall back onto the same divisive, nationalistic, populist old bollocks they have been using to hold power, but game show hosts and scurrilous journos are going to have a light shone on them by the likes of Starmer as they try to divert away ....look there's a Chinese squirrel!
The future is more socialist values and hopefully fairer, more responsible government
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  #127  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You could be right. Ironically at a time when left wing answers will be needed and could be more popular. And labour is stuck with a centrist leader who is a manikin dummy.
He didn't come across like that on Marr this morning . Quite the opposite in fact . Calm, assured, and determined to make labour electable . You had your chances under corbyn for your utopian society cr , soundly thrashed into oblivion unfortunately for you , now give him the backing he needs to do it, or take your chances with starting a new party . You love telling people to go out and do something about their political beliefs , here's your chance to follow your own mantra, go sow the seeds of a progressive labour / Communist party or get behind Starmer .
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  #128  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He is charisma free and I think Boris Johnson will make mincemeat of him. Mind you John Major beat Neil Kinnock in an election everyone said was a shoe in for Kinnock so who knows.
Boris does not have the forensic intellect to make mincemeat of him. There will only be one winner on that score.

Yes, he might throw some barking Boris barbs at Starmer but if this crisis continues for a long time, the public will quickly see who is the more measured, better leader. One who will forensically analyse what is needed and deliver or one who cannot stay on message during a press conference without sending out woolly conflicting messages.

Boris's supposed charisma ranks pretty low in what the country needs at the moment.
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  #129  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:45 PM
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I think Starmer and the Labour front bench will absolutely marmalise the government, who are, for the main part, a hooverage of moral and intellectual vacuity. Give it a year.
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  #130  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Cockneyrebel I was interested to read that you want to see an end to capitalism and that for you is what socialism is.

In my view that makes you a communist supporter not a Labour supporter.

I see Labour as a movement that came from workers wanting to curb the power of capitalism and to have a fairer share of that power and the fruits it bears but not to overthrow it entirely.

I am not saying I am right, I am not a Labour party historian or even member after all.
The history of the Labour Party has always been a mix from anything from radical socialists all the way to Blairites.

Socialism by most definitions does mean replacing the means of production (including on wiki lol).

Clause Four did pledge Labour to changing the means of production and was about far more than just curbing things. However I don't think Labour will ever bring about socialism but actions it takes could push things in the that direction.
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  #131  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
He didn't come across like that on Marr this morning . Quite the opposite in fact . Calm, assured, and determined to make labour electable . You had your chances under corbyn for your utopian society cr , soundly thrashed into oblivion unfortunately for you , now give him the backing he needs to do it, or take your chances with starting a new party . You love telling people to go out and do something about their political beliefs , here's your chance to follow your own mantra, go sow the seeds of a progressive labour / Communist party or get behind Starmer .
He came across to me as the same old useless, charisma free character that he is. Dull as dishwater and with little vision.

I've been a member of Labour for many years, so will stay. And just as many in the party continued to criticise Corbyn, I will do the same with Starmer, as I think he's utterly useless.
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  #132  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PemboExpress View Post
Boris does not have the forensic intellect to make mincemeat of him. There will only be one winner on that score.

Yes, he might throw some barking Boris barbs at Starmer but if this crisis continues for a long time, the public will quickly see who is the more measured, better leader. One who will forensically analyse what is needed and deliver or one who cannot stay on message during a press conference without sending out woolly conflicting messages.

Boris's supposed charisma ranks pretty low in what the country needs at the moment.
Boris Johnson is an idiot and a charlatan. But what is needed at the moment is someone who carries a message of hope and vision.

Not someone like Starmer who is the political version of Mr Bean. He's an embarrassment as the Labour Party leader.
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  #133  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He came across to me as the same old useless, charisma free character that he is. Dull as dishwater and with little vision.

I've been a member of Labour for many years, so will stay. And just as many in the party continued to criticise Corbyn, I will do the same with Starmer, as I think he's utterly useless.
I don't think you get to be Director of Public Prosecutions by being utterly useless.
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  #134  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think Starmer and the Labour front bench will absolutely marmalise the government, who are, for the main part, a hooverage of moral and intellectual vacuity. Give it a year.
this - for the main part the Tory front bench are quite thick - and obviously not that great in a crisis - Starmer and the best of the leading lights of the oppo will make that obvious to all but the thickest of our population quite quickly

In Johnson persists with not extending the Brexit transition period, then this year's chaos followed by another unnecessary period next year will make them stink of incompetency - and the government will - at best - limp on
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  #135  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:17 PM
PemboExpress PemboExpress is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Boris Johnson is an idiot and a charlatan. But what is needed at the moment is someone who carries a message of hope and vision.

Not someone like Starmer who is the political version of Mr Bean. He's an embarrassment as the Labour Party leader.
I am really not sure what more you wanted him to say in response to the interview qustions he was posed ?

Boris's idea of hope and vision is a spurious notion inside his bumbling head with no idea on how to actually execute. Starmer was forward thinking about a possible vaccine and having a firm plan how to roll that out immediately once found rather than Boris's rambling promises of more testing, PPE etc, when the plans for distributing these should have been drawn up in January, not on the back of a fag (predictive text suggested "gag" which is equally appropriate) packet as we go.
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  #136  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:19 PM
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I don't think you get to be Director of Public Prosecutions by being utterly useless.
People are good a different things. He might well be good at that but not as a political leader with vision. At that heís useless.
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  #137  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:21 PM
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Interesting view

Anti establishment how exactly ?
In the way that we saw in the referendum.

"Don't listen to experts"

"Don't trust career politicians"

"MPs are traitors"

And the rest.

You don't have to be anti establishment,just paint yourself as if you are.
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  #138  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PemboExpress View Post
I am really not sure what more you wanted him to say in response to the interview qustions he was posed ?

Boris's idea of hope and vision is a spurious notion inside his bumbling head with no idea on how to actually execute. Starmer was forward thinking about a possible vaccine and having a firm plan how to roll that out immediately once found rather than Boris's rambling promises of more testing, PPE etc, when the plans for distributing these should have been drawn up in January, not on the back of a fag (predictive text suggested "gag" which is equally appropriate) packet as we go.
He didnít really say anything much. And sounded like someone who has pushed paper around in the civil service for 40 years. Heís a technocrat not a leader. And will fail.

Boris Johnson is indeed useless you donít need to convince me of that.
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  #139  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:21 PM
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People are good a different things. He might well be good at that but not as a political leader with vision. At that heís useless.
He's been in the job 24 hours. FFS.

He might well turn out to be terrible, he might be great. We will find out.
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  #140  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:22 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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He's been in the job 24 hours. FFS.

He might well turn out to be terrible, he might be great. We will find out.
Yeah but itís not like this is the first Iíve known about him.

I hope there will be a leadership contest in a year or so to get someone in with a bit of vision and hope.
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