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  #141  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
In the way that we saw in the referendum.

"Don't listen to experts"

"Don't trust career politicians"

"MPs are traitors"

And the rest.

You don't have to be anti establishment,just paint yourself as if you are.
And most of those were spouted by members of the establishment showing how gullible the public are
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  #142  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:28 PM
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You really are brainwashed beyond hope, there is nothing but tribalism in you, it's almost akin to the Nazis and their Aryan race, its extreme hard left or nothing for you , and that is not socialism, it's communism . Starmer is, even at this early stage , a more capable, likeable ,and intellectual face of labour than Corbyn ever was. He will very quickly get labours respectability back , stamp out your glorious comrades filthy legacy of racism, and. With the 4 years he has or sooner ? He will be forming a labour government .
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  #143  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
A good question.
The short term outlook for me is that Boris will be exposed as the liar/chancer that he is. The failure to clamp down earlier on the virus has caused not only unnecessary deaths but also a longer economic disaster. It has also shown up how key workers (nhs, shop assistants, bus drivers, care providers etc) have been undervalued by successive governments but particularly since 2010 austerity which froze wages of key workers but reduced Corp tax (increased dividends) from 28% to 18%....doesn't look very nice now does it.
More money for the NHS and a fair living wage for all workers, with affordable housing and better public services will be demanded by those impacted by this I.e. nearly everyone
Medium term will inevitably see income tax rises, wealth taxes, higher Corp tax etc but also huge bond issuance to pay to rebuild the economy. I would also not be surprised to see windfall taxes on banks and a financial transaction tax on the city. It will slowly dawn on people that austerity and right wing capitalism is a busted flush.......enter Kier Starmer....
The right wing populist governments (Trump, Boris, Bolsanaro, Erdogan etc) will fall back onto the same divisive, nationalistic, populist old bollocks they have been using to hold power, but game show hosts and scurrilous journos are going to have a light shone on them by the likes of Starmer as they try to divert away ....look there's a Chinese squirrel!
The future is more socialist values and hopefully fairer, more responsible government
Ideally yes but there are some issues with this.Firstly,once people are attracted to these right wing populists they tend to do everything they can to double down their support.They could all implement the most left wing policies you have ever seen,some of the policies you mention or a set of nationalistic policies and these people will lap it up as some kind of triumph of the right.This doesn't apply to everyone,everyone has their own personal opinion but there are a large number of people I know that will double down on Brexit no matter what the outcome,as an example.

The other issue is that someone like Starmer may or may not push those "socialist values" that could be so successful at a time like this.I get the sense he is not Tony Blair but I also get the sense from where his support is coming from(and the lack of openness about his funding)that he is going to be pushed towards the "centre" in a way that Corbyn would never have been.Now that seems to be great for some,a large amount of people on here seem to want that,but my opinion is that the sacrifice will be the progressive policies that we really need.
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  #144  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
And most of those were spouted by members of the establishment showing how gullible the public are
Exactly.That puts it in a better way than my last sentence.
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  #145  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
You really are brainwashed beyond hope, there is nothing but tribalism in you, it's almost akin to the Nazis and their Aryan race, its extreme hard left or nothing for you , and that is not socialism, it's communism . Starmer is, even at this early stage , a more capable, likeable ,and intellectual face of labour than Corbyn ever was. He will very quickly get labours respectability back , stamp out your glorious comrades filthy legacy of racism, and. With the 4 years he has or sooner ? He will be forming a labour government .
Not sure if this was aimed at me or CR but I can respond:

None of that is factual,that is all your opinion.There are opposing views to each of the things you stated and we have gone over them in many threads relentlessly.I happen to have a different opinion.How having those opinions compares me to a Nazi I have no idea.
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  #146  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
You really are brainwashed beyond hope, there is nothing but tribalism in you, it's almost akin to the Nazis and their Aryan race, its extreme hard left or nothing for you , and that is not socialism, it's communism . Starmer is, even at this early stage , a more capable, likeable ,and intellectual face of labour than Corbyn ever was. He will very quickly get labours respectability back , stamp out your glorious comrades filthy legacy of racism, and. With the 4 years he has or sooner ? He will be forming a labour government .
Nazis lol. Let’s stop debating with each other it’s not productive is it.

I predict he will be a dull, useless leader who gets nowhere. Ed Miliband was better. Let’s see in four years.
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  #147  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Nazis lol. Letís stop debating with each other itís not productive is it.

Letís see in four years.
Yes 4 years or perhaps sooner , because the Tories will be deeply unpopular when the cost of this crisis has to be paid for . .and yes Nazis .. You want a labour party entirely made up of pure hard left . Just like the Nazis wanted blue eyed and blond haired automatons. It's a fair comparison.
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  #148  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He came across to me as the same old useless, charisma free character that he is. Dull as dishwater and with little vision.

I've been a member of Labour for many years, so will stay. And just as many in the party continued to criticise Corbyn, I will do the same with Starmer, as I think he's utterly useless.
Hows that for progressive politics
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  #149  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Yes 4 years or perhaps sooner , because the Tories will be deeply unpopular when the cost of this crisis has to be paid for . .and yes Nazis .. You want a labour party entirely made up of pure hard left . Just like the Nazis wanted blue eyed and blond haired automatons. It's a fair comparison.
You must think alot of people are Nazis if Cockneyrebel and Corbyn are like Nazis. Anyone right of centre in Israel, for instance.
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  #150  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Boris Johnson is an idiot and a charlatan. But what is needed at the moment is someone who carries a message of hope and vision.

Not someone like Starmer who is the political version of Mr Bean. He's an embarrassment as the Labour Party leader.
whilst you have become a self parody.
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  #151  
Old 05-04-2020, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Ideally yes but there are some issues with this.Firstly,once people are attracted to these right wing populists they tend to do everything they can to double down their support.They could all implement the most left wing policies you have ever seen,some of the policies you mention or a set of nationalistic policies and these people will lap it up as some kind of triumph of the right.This doesn't apply to everyone,everyone has their own personal opinion but there are a large number of people I know that will double down on Brexit no matter what the outcome,as an example.
You ignore two things. Firstly voter demographics. Secondly, the extent those within the Tory party and those who back it, are prepared to allow a populist 'leftward' drift. Both political theology and naked economic self-interest are still lines in the sand.
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  #152  
Old 05-04-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fang View Post
You ignore two things. Firstly voter demographics. Secondly, the extent those within the Tory party and those who back it, are prepared to allow a populist 'leftward' drift. Both political theology and naked economic self-interest are still lines in the sand.
If the trends of under 45s supporting Labour continue then any voter demographic change would benefit Labour from that point of view regardless of who the leader is.I'm 100% certain that the Tories will not move to the left in any way,especially the direction they are moving at the moment but all moving to the right does is increases their election chances in the long run,particularly given how unpopular the centre is at the moment.
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  #153  
Old 05-04-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Yes 4 years or perhaps sooner , because the Tories will be deeply unpopular when the cost of this crisis has to be paid for . .and yes Nazis .. You want a labour party entirely made up of pure hard left . Just like the Nazis wanted blue eyed and blond haired automatons. It's a fair comparison.
I donít actually. The comparison is both offensive to the millions who died in the holocaust and ridiculous. But keep it up.

Also there are leaders I donít agree with but who have an X factor. Obama, Blair to an extent, and others. People need to be either inspired by ideas or charisma especially in times of crisis.

Starmer is both as bland and devoid of charisma as you can get, and has bland centrist ideas.
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  #154  
Old 05-04-2020, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
t but all moving to the right does is increases their election chances in the long run,
How?
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  #155  
Old 05-04-2020, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I donít actually. The comparison is both offensive to the millions who died in the holocaust and ridiculous. But keep it up.

Also there are leaders I donít agree with but who have an X factor. Obama, Blair to an extent, and others. People need to be either inspired by ideas or charisma especially in times of crisis.

Starmer is both as bland and devoid of charisma as you can get, and has bland centrist ideas.
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  #156  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You could be right. Ironically at a time when left wing answers will be needed and could be more popular. And labour is stuck with a centrist leader who is a manikin dummy.

Labour has become more electable over night but carry on pushing the extreme left agenda
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  #157  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Yeah but itís not like this is the first Iíve known about him.

I hope there will be a leadership contest in a year or so to get someone in with a bit of vision and hope.
Like who ?

Starmer is the best hope of leading Labour back to power since Blair.
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  #158  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:10 PM
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Like who ?

Starmer is the best hope of leading Labour back to power since Blair.
Well that’s your view. I think he’s worse than Brown and Miliband in terms of centrists. Labour is currently fairly devoid of leadership talent. But surely there has to be better than him.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 05-04-2020 at 03:13 PM.
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  #159  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cantspell View Post
Labour has become more electable over night but carry on pushing the extreme left agenda
You have no idea if thatís the case but Iím sure he will get a bounce of some sort. He is already in negative popularity ratings though.

Also I have a socialist ďagendaĒ just as you have a centrist ďagendaĒ.

But that doesnít mean I canít see centrist leaders who have leadership qualities. Obama, Macron, Blair etc

Starmer just isnít a leader heís technocrat and dull by even those standards. Heís useless in that role.
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  #160  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:38 PM
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Well thatís your view. I think heís worse than Brown and Miliband in terms of centrists. Labour is currently fairly devoid of leadership talent. But surely there has to be better than him.
Who?
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