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  #181  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Because that is where the country is heading right now.And it's not just here,it's the US and Europe too (in an even more extreme way).People don't want the standard politicians they have had for years,they are fed up of life being the same and hearing the same crap from them over and over again.We both know that life can get an awful lot worse than this the further right we go,but most people have never lived through that.They don't remember Germany in the 1930s.If you polled everyone issue by issue you would probably find that socially we are pretty right wing.This is the rhetoric I'm hearing more and more,people are not scared to air views in public that 10 years ago they might have felt socially ashamed to do."Electability" right now means being more populist,more anti establishment and being right of centre.If Labour wants to win that is where it needs to stand on a number of issues.I don't want Labour to stand for those values,I want to be able to vote for a party that offers an alternative.
I don't accept that the country is now intrinsically right wing. There has always been a hard core of people in the UK who are bigots and racist with nationalist tendencies, but they are a minority. However, you are right in as much that they now have licence to air these views more freely without too much criticism, and that distorts their numbers and influence. Some of this licence was down to the Brexit campaigns and aftermath, but of course, we have also seen this kind of nationalism rear its head in other European countries without the background of leaving the EU.

CR is wrong about Starmer, and in my view, he has been convincing himself now for so long that he is an elitist and Tory lite, he can no longer accept any other alternative argument. This is exemplified by his focus on Starmer's alleged lack of charisma, and very little else, apart from supposition, and other stuff that I have seen on leftist forums, many of which I am a member myself for several months, so I have a good idea what is going on here.
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  #182  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not impressed by the quality of the shadow cabinet. Nandy is a potentially nasty and dangerous politician. Strange choice for chancellor. Once again shows the lack of talent.
You're crazy.

And Dodds was nailed on for Chancellor.
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  #183  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Worksop Palace View Post
Ok then

Name your leader and SC
Difficult as choice is so bad. Doesnít make what there is any better.
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  #184  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
You're crazy.

And Dodds was nailed on for Chancellor.
Yeah ok Mr Blue Labour.
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  #185  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
I don't accept that the country is now intrinsically right wing. There has always been a hard core of people in the UK who are bigots and racist with nationalist tendencies, but they are a minority. However, you are right in as much that they now have licence to air these views more freely without too much criticism, and that distorts their numbers and influence. Some of this licence was down to the Brexit campaigns and aftermath, but of course, we have also seen this kind of nationalism rear its head in other European countries without the background of leaving the EU.

CR is wrong about Starmer, and in my view, he has been convincing himself now for so long that he is an elitist and Tory lite, he can no longer accept any other alternative argument. This is exemplified by his focus on Starmer's alleged lack of charisma, and very little else, apart from supposition, and other stuff that I have seen on leftist forums, many of which I am a member myself for several months, so I have a good idea what is going on here.
Itís his politics and personality. Both are bland and wonít inspire or get anywhere.
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  #186  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Nazis lol. Letís stop debating with each other itís not productive is it.

I predict he will be a dull, useless leader who gets nowhere. Ed Miliband was better. Letís see in four years.
You won't have to wait that long - I think Labour will do very well in any bi-election in the next year
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  #187  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by eddieskyclad View Post
You're crazy.

And Dodds was nailed on for Chancellor.
I bet you have got some new tissues to celebrate the Nandy as shadow foreign sec.
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  #188  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Because that is where the country is heading right now.And it's not just here,it's the US and Europe too (in an even more extreme way).People don't want the standard politicians they have had for years,they are fed up of life being the same and hearing the same crap from them over and over again.We both know that life can get an awful lot worse than this the further right we go,but most people have never lived through that.They don't remember Germany in the 1930s.If you polled everyone issue by issue you would probably find that socially we are pretty right wing.This is the rhetoric I'm hearing more and more,people are not scared to air views in public that 10 years ago they might have felt socially ashamed to do."Electability" right now means being more populist,more anti establishment and being right of centre.If Labour wants to win that is where it needs to stand on a number of issues.I don't want Labour to stand for those values,I want to be able to vote for a party that offers an alternative.
Except (as has already been pointed out) the populists are of the establishment. What are their solutions for climate change?, the post virus economy?, the lack of employment for those leaving higher education? Who will they blame for all this. The EU? We're out. Immigrants? We've shut the door. Jermy Cor.........

I don't accept the notion that the population has suddenly become supine, or that those who aren't of the New Right have lost the will to object. I'm sorry but you are offering an analogue analysis in a digital world.
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  #189  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:24 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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At least one thing good has come out of leadership election and that is that Long Bailey did not win. You have to widen your thinking when electing a leader unless of course you continually want to come second.

You are fighting the class structure, schooling system and media who to a large extent run this country and if you think that Karl Marx is still relevant to the wider mass of working people,how wrong do you want to be.

So much needs to be done with the rampant inequality and so much else that exists but as the Tories do not include their appalling ideology with obvious truthfulness labour perhaps needs to play the same games as their opponents.

The monarchy and state despite what you might like to think do not have the British working people as the top priority. We are the people who form the armies, workforce that make the monies for the wealthy ,suffer austerity and will pick up the tab for the virus. I know most people know this basic stuff but Jeez why are so many people sucked into supporting this crap.
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  #190  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Harry Bassett View Post
At least one thing good has come out of leadership election and that is that Long Bailey did not win. You have to widen your thinking when electing a leader unless of course you continually want to come second.

You are fighting the class structure, schooling system and media who to a large extent run this country and if you think that Karl Marx is still relevant to the wider mass of working people,how wrong do you want to be.

So much needs to be done with the rampant inequality and so much else that exists but as the Tories do not include their appalling ideology with obvious truthfulness labour perhaps needs to play the same games as their opponents.

The monarchy and state despite what you might like to think do not have the British working people as the top priority. We are the people who form the armies, workforce that make the monies for the wealthy ,suffer austerity and will pick up the tab for the virus. I know most people know this basic stuff but Jeez why are so many people sucked into supporting this crap.
Agreed.

The problem was corbyn was never a leader.. He also made bad choices employing Stalinists. To be fair he had very few loyalists to pick for the shadow cabinet. But he also didnít have the umph to take on his internal opposition. Which has meant that he actually changed very little in labour, including at the grassroots.

We have now turned back to a more boring version of Ed Miliband with uninspiring politics and a bland shadow cabinet. You can almost feel the lack of enthusiasm.
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  #191  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
I bet you have got some new tissues to celebrate the Nandy as shadow foreign sec.

Such a wanker Weltarse.


Do you ever post a comment that isn't a piece of shit?
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  #192  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
I don't accept that the country is now intrinsically right wing. There has always been a hard core of people in the UK who are bigots and racist with nationalist tendencies, but they are a minority. However, you are right in as much that they now have licence to air these views more freely without too much criticism, and that distorts their numbers and influence. Some of this licence was down to the Brexit campaigns and aftermath, but of course, we have also seen this kind of nationalism rear its head in other European countries without the background of leaving the EU.

CR is wrong about Starmer, and in my view, he has been convincing himself now for so long that he is an elitist and Tory lite, he can no longer accept any other alternative argument. This is exemplified by his focus on Starmer's alleged lack of charisma, and very little else, apart from supposition, and other stuff that I have seen on leftist forums, many of which I am a member myself for several months, so I have a good idea what is going on here.
Every political position has a minority.The problem now is that this is the minority that is largest and the one which is seeing largely swing voters leaning towards.Hopefully the political climate changes but right now the left and the centre both have huge obstacles to overcome in order to become a force in elections.My worry is that the centre will move right in order to appease some of these voters.Whether Labour will do that is difficult to tell.


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Originally Posted by fang View Post
Except (as has already been pointed out) the populists are of the establishment. What are their solutions for climate change?, the post virus economy?, the lack of employment for those leaving higher education? Who will they blame for all this. The EU? We're out. Immigrants? We've shut the door. Jermy Cor.........

I don't accept the notion that the population has suddenly become supine, or that those who aren't of the New Right have lost the will to object. I'm sorry but you are offering an analogue analysis in a digital world.
I'm just seeing a move towards that kind of politics and people who are swing voters now favouring that type of politics more and more.Of course you are right they will run out of things to blame and there could be a realisation among some that they have been conned but at the moment politics is moving that way.As I said in my response to SE25 exile I'm worried that all sides of the political spectrum will shift as a consequence and the new "norms" will be further to the right than before.
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  #193  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Every political position has a minority.
One person with an attitude can be considered a minority, but the whole issue is subjective and we know that shades of political views exist across a large spectrum.

I was interested in the polls during the Brexit debate and it seemed that those who were willing a no deal and a complete break from the EU was always coming out around 30%, and since then, although not totally scientific, this has been my own view of the size of that minority, a sizeable nationalistic one, but still a minority.

It was generally accepted that Brexit showed up a trend in British politics, with both ends of the extreme gaining ground, and vacating the centre that was popular throughout the late 1990s and the first decade of the 21st century.

Then we had the crash in 2007/8, and austerity and the issue of wealth distribution became more acutely debated as a consequence, and this empowered the hard left, as Brexit was to empower the hard right in and after 2016.

These individual but hugely significant events can change politics in a few short years, and now we have the Pandemic, another huge event that will change our politics again, and push Brexit into the background by its overwhelming impact.

I am not prepared to predict what is going to happen next in our politics, but one thing I am certain about, it will be different.
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  #194  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
One person with an attitude can be considered a minority, but the whole issue is subjective and we know that shades of political views exist across a large spectrum.

I was interested in the polls during the Brexit debate and it seemed that those who were willing a no deal and a complete break from the EU was always coming out around 30%, and since then, although not totally scientific, this has been my own view of the size of that minority, a sizeable nationalistic one, but still a minority.

It was generally accepted that Brexit showed up a trend in British politics, with both ends of the extreme gaining ground, and vacating the centre that was popular throughout the late 1990s and the first decade of the 21st century.

Then we had the crash in 2007/8, and austerity and the issue of wealth distribution became more acutely debated as a consequence, and this empowered the hard left, as Brexit was to empower the hard right in and after 2016.

These individual but hugely significant events can change politics in a few short years, and now we have the Pandemic, another huge event that will change our politics again, and push Brexit into the background by its overwhelming impact.

I am not prepared to predict what is going to happen next in our politics, but one thing I am certain about, it will be different.
I agree I have absolutely no idea what will happen next with 100% certainty.I hope we are having these debates between the range that the centre covers and the range that the left covers across the whole political spectrum but I'm not naive enough to believe that will ever happen as much as I want to crush the right,metaphorically obviously.The objection I have on here is posters talking with absolute certainty that the centre will do brilliantly in every election between now and the end of time and being on the left is just a "purity test" or a "principled position" or an "unelectable position".The electorate have rejected this version this time yes,but the electorate changes.The electorate are rejecting centrism too but there are so many on here denying that.
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  #195  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:45 PM
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Some new blood in the shadow cabinet.
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  #196  
Old 05-04-2020, 05:55 PM
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You have no idea if thatís the case but Iím sure he will get a bounce of some sort. He is already in negative popularity ratings though.



Also I have a socialist ďagendaĒ just as you have a centrist ďagendaĒ.



But that doesnít mean I canít see centrist leaders who have leadership qualities. Obama, Macron, Blair etc



Starmer just isnít a leader heís technocrat and dull by even those standards. Heís useless in that role.

As youíve said no idea what will happen yet but he could hardly be a worse leader than corbyn. Hopefully at some point we will see an end to the tories in power.

Not in the above comment but youíve previously called him useless- given his previous role he is far from that
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  #197  
Old 05-04-2020, 06:21 PM
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As youíve said no idea what will happen yet but he could hardly be a worse leader than corbyn. Hopefully at some point we will see an end to the tories in power.

Not in the above comment but youíve previously called him useless- given his previous role he is far from that
Johnson isn't a leader, but masses of people voted for him. All this nonsense about Starmer is just sour grapes, and I see it from the vacuous comments on many hard left forums.

Many like CR will eventually be surprised by his effectiveness, but I won't be.
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  #198  
Old 05-04-2020, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You have no idea if thatís the case but Iím sure he will get a bounce of some sort. He is already in negative popularity ratings though.

Also I have a socialist ďagendaĒ just as you have a centrist ďagendaĒ.

But that doesnít mean I canít see centrist leaders who have leadership qualities. Obama, Macron, Blair etc

Starmer just isnít a leader heís technocrat and dull by even those standards. Heís useless in that role.
I do wish you would study history whilst in lockdown.

The most boring politician in history is a description of Clem Attlee you know the one who beat Churchill twice.

I could listen to Michael Foot or Tony Benn often did be inspired even but as leaders we know what happened under Foot.

Starmer has an opportunity at the end of the current crisis we are facing tough times. Boris like Churchill maybe the right person currently. However Attlee beat Churchill by being the right person to take the country forward after the war.. If Starmer can position him and the Labour Party in the same way then there is a chance.

Austerity is not going to.be the answer the state will be bailing out so many businesses. We have seen Rail for instance. The Airlines then there will be holiday companies etc etc . How that is done how the NHS for instance is positioned funded in the future. A technocrat may well be the answer.

But it's not Corbyn and the rest......so it's what.....time to study history and start the long recovery for Labour. Maybe actually do something about the mess you helped to create....
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  #199  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:00 PM
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Difficult as choice is so bad. Doesnít make what there is any better.
No, come on.

Who would you have as leader and shadow cabinet

Itís not a tough question for someone like you
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  #200  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:02 PM
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Such a wanker Weltarse.


Do you ever post a comment that isn't a piece of shit?
Ooh ooh ooh, pick me pick me pick me

I think I know the answer to this one .....

Is it .....

No ?
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