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  #21  
Old 23-06-2006, 01:59 PM
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I cannot see Lazio being caught up in all of this.

Or rather I hope not
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  #22  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:08 PM
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  #23  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Latvian Eagle
Clubs are allowed to "set up" again in the place of the old club, but they have to start a league lower than they would be in. The ruled was chanced after the Fiorentina incident, as they were amde to drop to the bottom. That no longer happens. Torino reformed and started in Serie B last season, after dropping from Serie A.
That's hardly a suitable punishment though, is it? In this country Rotherham got hit with a 6 point deduction for being in administration. If something like this happened in the English league then surely the guilty club would not only be booted out of the league, but would have to start at the very bottom of the pyramid?

It happened to Maidstone United and Acrington Stanley after all, when they were wound up.

If there was any sense, then the newly formed club were made to start in whatever regional ameatur league exists in the Italian structure.

If they are found guilty, then surely UEFA should intervene, if the Italian FA lacks the ability to properly punish.
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  #24  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by Jay_Palace
That's hardly a suitable punishment though, is it? In this country Rotherham got hit with a 6 point deduction for being in administration. If something like this happened in the English league then surely the guilty club would not only be booted out of the league, but would have to start at the very bottom of the pyramid?

It happened to Maidstone United and Acrington Stanley after all, when they were wound up.

If there was any sense, then the newly formed club were made to start in whatever regional ameatur league exists in the Italian structure.

If they are found guilty, then surely UEFA should intervene, if the Italian FA lacks the ability to properly punish.
This Fiorentina, is not, officially, the same club. AC Fiorentina went bankrupt and a new team were form as AC Florentia Viola, they were made start again in Serie C2. No English club has ever, to my knowledge, been given such a severe punishment and Italian rules on solvency are much stricter than here. Accrington Stanley and Maidstone both resigned, I think.

To give a poignant example, Palace would not have been allowed to carry on as long as they did, in Italy.

AC Florentia Viola won Serie C2 (their last game being played in front of 40,000, in a league where 400 is considered a big crowd). I think I am right in saying they then won promotion again, and were allowed to adopt the name of AC Fiorentina, whilst doing so. They either played a season in B, or were leapfrogged over B into A at the behest of the clubs.
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  #25  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Latvian Eagle
Clubs are allowed to "set up" again in the place of the old club, but they have to start a league lower than they would be in. The ruled was chanced after the Fiorentina incident, as they were amde to drop to the bottom. That no longer happens. Torino reformed and started in Serie B last season, after dropping from Serie A.
Torino didn't go bankrupt, Fiorentina did and restarted as AC Florentia Viola.
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  #26  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:25 PM
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Torino set up as a new team!? They changed their badge and everything!
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  #27  
Old 23-06-2006, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHE
This Fiorentina, is not, officially, the same club. AC Fiorentina went bankrupt and a new team were form as AC Florentia Viola, they were made start again in Serie C2. No English club has ever, to my knowledge, been given such a severe punishment and Italian rules on solvency are much stricter than here. Accrington Stanley and Maidstone both resigned, I think.

To give a poignant example, Palace would not have been allowed to carry on as long as they did, in Italy.

AC Florentia Viola won Serie C2 (their last game being played in front of 40,000, in a league where 400 is considered a big crowd). I think I am right in saying they then won promotion again, and were allowed to adopt the name of AC Fiorentina, whilst doing so. They either played a season in B, or were leapfrogged over B into A at the behest of the clubs.
It's a cheap way out though. If I'm right in thinking [correct me if I'm wrong] but the "new" Fiorentina was largely made up of the players and staff from the original team that went bust? As for the solvency issue, well it doesn't seem very likely, seeing as most Italian clubs are insolvent [what ever happened to Lazio after their gigantic debts, and also Parma?]. I don't remember them receiving any punishment whereas in this country, it is a mandatory points deduction if you are in administration for a certain period of time.

These are gigantic allegations and if proved, then it would be a complete nonsense to permit the clubs involved to participate in any meaningful league. I can't see AC Milan and Juventus getting wound up, if these allegations are proved though and it would be a massive cop out if they merely get relegated to Serie B. The punishment should be proportionate to the crime.

There should also potentially be an argument from banning Italian clubs from European competition for a period of time. After all, English clubs including ourselves were penalised by the actions of other clubs [their fans FFS] and banned from European competition. From a footballing perspective this is equally deserving of similar punishment, surely.

Italian football hs always been shamefully corrupt and I'm staggered that it has taken this long for something concrete to arise. I hope that severe sanctions are handed out, if/when they are found guilty.
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  #28  
Old 23-06-2006, 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by Jay_Palace
It's a cheap way out though. If I'm right in thinking [correct me if I'm wrong] but the "new" Fiorentina was largely made up of the players and staff from the original team that went bust? As for the solvency issue, well it doesn't seem very likely, seeing as most Italian clubs are insolvent [what ever happened to Lazio after their gigantic debts, and also Parma?]. I don't remember them receiving any punishment whereas in this country, it is a mandatory points deduction if you are in administration for a certain period of time.

These are gigantic allegations and if proved, then it would be a complete nonsense to permit the clubs involved to participate in any meaningful league. I can't see AC Milan and Juventus getting wound up, if these allegations are proved though and it would be a massive cop out if they merely get relegated to Serie B. The punishment should be proportionate to the crime.

There should also potentially be an argument from banning Italian clubs from European competition for a period of time. After all, English clubs including ourselves were penalised by the actions of other clubs [their fans FFS] and banned from European competition. From a footballing perspective this is equally deserving of similar punishment, surely.

Italian football hs always been shamefully corrupt and I'm staggered that it has taken this long for something concrete to arise. I hope that severe sanctions are handed out, if/when they are found guilty.
So let's get this straight, you said that Italian football should take strong sanctions against those with financial indiscretions, and should follow the English example. When it was pointed out that their sanctions were actually stronger then our's, you still feel this isn't strong enough and feel that the punishment should equate with that for those who murdered 39 people?
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  #29  
Old 24-06-2006, 12:10 PM
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Also CHE! Napoli... The old SSC Napoli who Maradona played for is a different team as Napoli Soccer who are now in Serie B! They bought the place of the old bankrupted Napoli!

Same thing happened with Torino did it not? That's what happened with Florentia 02 La Viola. They bought Fiorentina's place in the league. When they went up to Serie B (by massive default, and luck!) they changed name to Fiorentina. Everyone always saw them as Fiorentina anyway!
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Old 24-06-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
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Also CHE! Napoli... The old SSC Napoli who Maradona played for is a different team as Napoli Soccer who are now in Serie B! They bought the place of the old bankrupted Napoli!

Same thing happened with Torino did it not? That's what happened with Florentia 02 La Viola. They bought Fiorentina's place in the league. When they went up to Serie B (by massive default, and luck!) they changed name to Fiorentina. Everyone always saw them as Fiorentina anyway!
I think the Napoli and Torino clubs are more akin to what happened with clubs like Palace and Middlesbrough over here, ie a new holding company was formed but it they are, essentially the same club. Fiorentina actually ceased to exist, and Florentia Viola was a completely new club, formed to start at the lowest level of the professional game, which in Italy is C2. They did not take Fiorentina's place, as such, as Fiorentina did not exist. Note sure about Torino's page, certainly if you look at the club site it refers to club's history including"Il Grande Torino" and BOTH badges appear.

Fiorentina would approximate more to the Leeds City/Leeds United story at the start of the twentieth century.
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  #31  
Old 24-06-2006, 06:19 PM
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Will G14 be able to interviene?
(I hope not)
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  #32  
Old 24-06-2006, 06:27 PM
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I cannot see Lazio being caught up in all of this.

Or rather I hope not
Me neither
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  #33  
Old 24-06-2006, 09:44 PM
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Will G14 be able to interviene?
(I hope not)
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To promote and improve professional football in all its aspects and safeguard the general interests of the member clubs
I expect they will
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Old 24-06-2006, 09:47 PM
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That G14 website makes for depressing reading.

They might as well stick the web address in the dictionary under the definition of cartel.
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Old 26-06-2006, 10:33 AM
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Massimo Moratti has said that if the clubs don't get a suitable punishment he will uproot Inter, and move them to another league in another country. He's also said he'd happily accept the Scudetto if it's taken away from Juve & Milan!

On my Real Madrid shopping list if I was one of the presidential candidates...

Fabio Cannavaro
Alessandro Nesta
Andrea Pirlo
Patrick Vieira
Kaka (Already is!)
Luca Toni.

All would be available on freebies if the clubs were relegated.I'd also be tempted to take Seba Frey from Fiorentina to give Casillas some proper competition.
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Old 26-06-2006, 11:15 AM
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Old 26-06-2006, 03:12 PM
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Massimo Moratti has said that if the clubs don't get a suitable punishment he will uproot Inter, and move them to another league in another country.
Perhaps he could buy/merge with Palace
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Old 26-06-2006, 03:31 PM
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He could certainly afford to. Especially if rumours circulating 2-3 months ago were true.

Apparently he said that if they replaced Mancini as manager the new guy in would get a transfer budget of 100m. Moratti's actually a nice guy actually! Just expects too much too quick!
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Old 26-06-2006, 03:52 PM
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Moratti's actually a nice guy actually! Just expects too much too quick!
You sound like you had dinner with the bloke!
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Old 26-06-2006, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHE
So let's get this straight, you said that Italian football should take strong sanctions against those with financial indiscretions, and should follow the English example. When it was pointed out that their sanctions were actually stronger then our's, you still feel this isn't strong enough and feel that the punishment should equate with that for those who murdered 39 people?
Where is the evidence that the regulations are tougher in Italy? You don't get this level of corruption in the UK or indeed elsewhere so I would suggest that is nonsense. Clubs in the UK receive massive fines and points deductions for the smallest financial indiscretion. As was mentioned earlier, if a club folds in Italy then a new club can be formed and would then be permitted to play in the division below. Does this sound particularly harsh to you?

Why were Crystal Palace responsible for the goings on in Heysel? Why for that matter were Liverpool Football club responsible for the actions of a minority of their fans? It was grossly disproportionate to ban English clubs from European competition, because of the actions of some lowlife scummy fans. In this case it is different. It will show, if the allegations are proved that the Italian game is rotten from top to bottom and as such, how can Italian clubs be permitted to appear in premier European competition?

Only a lengthy ban for Italian clubs will suffice, on the European stage, with appropriate steps taken by the Italian FA at domestic level.
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