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  #21  
Old 05-09-2009, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Woosie
Rumour has it that Burnley are willing to play a friendly at Turf Moor against Accrington Stanley to help Accrington out with their financial problems.
Burnley have agreed to hold a friendly against Stanley at Turf Moor on Tuesday night, with all the gate receipts going to Stanley. The Clarets have also agreed to foot all the costs from the game...however, while the Premier League have given their consent for the game, the Football League still havent bothered to reply to Stanleys request for permission to participate. Great credit to Burnley though.

Personally, I think that even if Stanley manage to clear the debt and keep their League status its only postponing the inevitible...on gates of 1100-1500 they are never going to sustain League football. Theyve been punching above their weight for years, their success in rising from the Unibond First Division to the Football League built on the money brought in from the sale of Brett Ormerod to Blackpool and his subsequent move to Southampton. To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #22  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE
But the big clubs are already benefitting under the present system! How many clubs which aren't Manure, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool have won the League or Cup since 1992? The whole set up is designed to serve their purpose - and what's worse, clubs are forced to be permanently on the edge of insolvency not to compete in the title race but simply to avoid relegation.

As for Europe - sod it. The European competitions stopped being about sport when the 'Champions' League was instituted - it is just another stitch-up to cement the big clubs' financial supremacy.

And I'm sure the rest of the world would much prefer it if the stupendous wages on offer in Europe didn't cause them to lose all their best players.

Football has reached the financial crisis point which it's been building to this past decade or more. Desperate measures are necessary to solve it.
I agree with you on this but I still cant see wage capping happening in a million years. The reality is that it is us public who have bought into the Murdoch Sky dynasty and pay him vast sums each month to fund this situation.

There is no way the big clubs are going to forfeit their income to any great extent because they are in competition with the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona etc. as well as each other.

The only thin we can do as fans is to boycott Sky Sports, which reminds me I need to cancel my subscription!
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  #23  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Psychokiller
Whilst a deafening silence comes from the likes of Man Ure and Liverpool. That really says it all for me.
You would've thought Liverpool could do something, just off the back of that famous advert.

To be fair though, if they cant get the support through the gates then unfortunately that is just tough. There are plenty of clubs in the leagues below who would.
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  #24  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:36 AM
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Doubt a wage cap in Europe would ever be introduced, not even sure it would be legal.
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  #25  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by spt1978
Doubt a wage cap in Europe would ever be introduced, not even sure it would be legal.
How do both rugby codes manage to have a wage cap? Genuine question!
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  #26  
Old 06-09-2009, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TWOSEAT EAGLE
My 'second' club Accrington Stanley look like they'll be forced to resign from the league in 8 weeks time..they've been shafted by the Football League who changed their ground criteria rules last December, forcing Stanley to install an additional 1500 seats but refusing to give the club more than 5 months on which to complete the work - this despite the fact that the ground already had 2000 seats yet only 1100 average attendances. Then the tax office gave backword on an agreement to allow Stanley 12 months in which to clear a 300k bill....the club having used the money set aside to pay the tax bill in order to fund the purchase and instalation of the seats. The tax office now want the bill settled in 8 weeks due to a change in club ownership.
I watched Aldershot v Accrington a couple of weeks ago. They have a very decent youg midfielder who I imagine could be sold to pay the bill. But then again you need to find someone with to buy him and there arent many of them and the window doesnt reopen in time anyway.

Seriously hope they are able to sort out the mess.
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  #27  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ
How do both rugby codes manage to have a wage cap? Genuine question!
I can only assume it's just because no one has challenged it yet, if someone did a 'Bosman' then they would easily win the case.

It will be another sad day when someone finally does though and proof that the Human Rights bill does not serve it's purpose as it is supposed to.
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  #28  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE
But the big clubs are already benefitting under the present system! How many clubs which aren't Manure, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool have won the League or Cup since 1992? The whole set up is designed to serve their purpose - and what's worse, clubs are forced to be permanently on the edge of insolvency not to compete in the title race but simply to avoid relegation.

As for Europe - sod it. The European competitions stopped being about sport when the 'Champions' League was instituted - it is just another stitch-up to cement the big clubs' financial supremacy.

And I'm sure the rest of the world would much prefer it if the stupendous wages on offer in Europe didn't cause them to lose all their best players.

Football has reached the financial crisis point which it's been building to this past decade or more. Desperate measures are necessary to solve it.
Eloquently put, DM. But our media constantly hype up the Premiership as 'a great product - the envy of the world.'

As a competition, the 'top flight' is so much duller than it was even 10 years ago. As for 20 years ago - the eyes are misty with recollection (and not just because of our heady years).
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Granada allover
Eloquently put, DM. But our media constantly hype up the Premiership as 'a great product - the envy of the world.'
Bizarre isn't it, the CCC is a far better competition (i'm not going to use the word product), the standard of football may not be as good but it is far, far more competitive.

Admittedly most of the major top flights across Europe are fairly uncompetitive, the only exception I can think of is the Bundesliga.
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  #30  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Rhino
I can only assume it's just because no one has challenged it yet, if someone did a 'Bosman' then they would easily win the case.
I'm sure it would have happened already if this really is the case.

I mean I know that Rugby players come across that they have better morals, but there's definitely a John Oster or two that plays eggchasing who would sell their own mother to get a pay boost.

Football just needs to start again and realise that its a sport designed to entertain. How can anyone say that watching the same teams win year after year is entertaining, I don't know.

Personally I feel that its Sky and the plastic fantastic fans who have ruined everything.

Crowds would be so much higher if the only way you could watch a game is by going down the road to your local club.
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  #31  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cpfc4evandeva
Football just needs to start again and realise that its a sport designed to entertain. How can anyone say that watching the same teams win year after year is entertaining, I don't know.

Personally I feel that its Sky and the plastic fantastic fans who have ruined everything.

Crowds would be so much higher if the only way you could watch a game is by going down the road to your local club.
The problem is that the statistics prove the opposite. Crowds are considerably up across football from pre-Sky days and it has become more of a 'family entertainment' business than just the football we used to watch.

Also, the CCC may be more competitive than the Premiership but how many of us moan about the constant long-ball football that Palace and many other clubs still play? The reality is that we still do like to watch teams playing football like Arsenal and Manure, as much as we may despise what they represent.
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  #32  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:32 AM
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This is why salary-capping wouldn't work in football (from Wikipedia):

"Salary caps in Europe
Several European football (soccer) leagues are considering salary caps. In 2002, BBC reported [7] that the G14 group of 18 leading European football teams would cap their payrolls at 70% of team's income, starting from the 2005/2006 season - however, this did not eventually occur. Serie A, the leading Italian football league and The Football League in England have also considered salary caps.

Top executives in European football have acknowledged that a number of challenges not present in North America would confront anyone who tried to implement an effective cap across European football or even across a single league, especially if this were to be a flat limit put in place to create competitive balance:

The various national leagues are in competition with each other for the best players because there is free movement of players between the leagues. Football leagues in European Union countries have been forbidden from prohibiting the signing of EU players from other nations, or even from limiting their numbers. Therefore, if one league imposed a strict cap on its teams, the best players from the country in question would still be free to move to uncapped rival leagues.

The existence of lucrative and prestigious international club competitions encourage clubs to ensure dominance of their national leagues in order to play in the higher-level European leagues. For the top clubs, the domestic league is little more than a stepping stone to the European league. Success in European club competitions is not only a matter of national pride - the number of places allocated to each country for these competitions is determined by that country's teams' past performances in Europe. Salary caps in franchise leagues do not have to deal with teams in rival leagues.

Different governing bodies have authority over domestic and international competitions. For example, UEFA governs European football and organizes the prestigious Champions League and UEFA Cup, but its authority over the domestic leagues is very limited. Although UEFA could, in theory, impose a wage cap, it would only apply to UEFA's club competitions and to the portion of each team's payroll paid to players registered with UEFA. A wealthy Champions League team could then sign players who would play exclusively in domestic competitions. In other major sports, there is generally only a single league which oversees a single premier competition.

The number of clubs in the various lower divisions of the national leagues can run into the thousands. The promotion and relegation system used to allow transfer between these divisions presents challenges especially if the cap system provisioned lower limits in the lower divisions. The system would make it difficult to rise into the higher leagues if it didn't have the option of buying new players, forever limiting the club's ability to compete. A club with a payroll close to the top division's cap might be relegated and then find themselves significantly over the second division cap. A promoted club might have to face the challenge of hastily finding players who it could then pay under a higher cap. The franchise model is fixed, with the same teams involved every year.

European tax systems and rates vary greatly from country to country. One prominent club, AS Monaco, plays in a principality with no income tax at all. A flat payroll limit would therefore equate to aggregate take home pay that varied greatly from one club to the next, which would make it difficult for teams in countries with higher taxation to attract the best players. By comparison, the differences between the tax systems and tax rates of Canada, the U.S. and between their respective provinces and states are not nearly as great.

Europeans use multiple currencies and football wages are usually paid in the local currency. Although the countries hosting all but one of the most prominent European leagues now use the Euro, the one exception (England) has the richest league. Even if a hypothetical UEFA-wide cap were denominated in Euros, fluctuating exchange rates would make it difficult for the cap to be fairly administered in the United Kingdom since its salaries are paid in pounds sterling. By comparison, most player salaries paid to players on Canadian major sports teams are paid in U.S. dollars, in fact this is now mandated in the NHL to ensure that payrolls do not fluctuate with exchange rates. On the other hand, trying to force British clubs to pay wages in Euros so that their payrolls could not exceed a cap would meet with opposition from clubs since their revenues are collected in pounds, and might even provoke political opposition from Britons determined to prevent the Euro from replacing the pound. "
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  #33  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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That's an interesting article, but it's only an opinion: none of that is fact of the sort you'd find in a proper encyclopaedia. None of the objections there are insurmountable, let alone legal.
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  #34  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ
How do both rugby codes manage to have a wage cap? Genuine question!
Not sure to be honest, dont know much about the Rugby cap. Imagine all the clubs agreed to it, cant see that happening in football.
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  #35  
Old 06-09-2009, 11:43 AM
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i would imagine any premiership team would be able to get round a salary cap with some creative accounting IE buying the player a house and maybe cars etc or offering a 1 off payment for a trial, rick clubs have great accountants and expensive lawyers
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:24 PM
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Such benefits would be taxable, however; it would be simple to formulate a rule so the salary is defined as total remuneration, including bonuses, benefits in kind, and so forth - whatever is declared to the taxman is the player's salary, and the package must be less than the cap.

I am sure most of us are not talking about individual salary caps, but aggregate salaries at the club - it is of secondary importance who gets paid what within a team, so long as the club's total wage bill is confined within a particular amount or proportion.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE
Such benefits would be taxable, however; it would be simple to formulate a rule so the salary is defined as total remuneration, including bonuses, benefits in kind, and so forth - whatever is declared to the taxman is the player's salary, and the package must be less than the cap.

I am sure most of us are not talking about individual salary caps, but aggregate salaries at the club - it is of secondary importance who gets paid what within a team, so long as the club's total wage bill is confined within a particular amount or proportion.
But how would you apply it intercontinentally or even internationally? If you didn't then players would just bugger off abroad, as has happened with English Rugby players heading over to France.

Any sensible club should not be paying more than 70% of their income on wages and even Chelsea run on a lot more sensible basis than the beginning of the Abramovich era. Can UEFA or FIFA enforce it? I doubt it.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:27 AM
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think the problem is that for salary capping to work you would need the same rules right across Europe or their would be no kind of level playing field. Cannot see that happening. The egg chasers in both codes have only a limited number of countries playing to a serious level and there isn't the dangerous game of leapfrog going on whereby Barca and Real try to out do Chelsea and Man U. Also the crowds for top flight club rugby don't come close to matching those for the clubs mentioned. People who choose Rugby for a career understand that. Richmond RFC did go large when they went professional and hit the buffers in style. Rugby Union seems to have heeded the lesson. There is though a huge gap in resources and standards between the premier league sides and the rest as in football.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:50 AM
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Salary caps in Rugby League I believe are for the club as a whole, and don't relate to limiting what any one single player earns - I think the total wage bill has to be less than a set % of turnover (of the previous season I think). If that is the case, that's probably how it's legal, as you're not limiting what any one player can earn - it's the decision of the club how they divide up the "pot" they have for salary.
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:10 AM
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elgin eagle elgin eagle is offline
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Are any of the 92 league clubs showing a profit, without overdue investment from billionaires, benefactors or arabs? If any are, they have to be looked at as the model to follow for other clubs.

Perhaps some legislation would help which decrees that clubs can only pay a maximum percentage of income towards wages, and points deductions will follow if they fail to enforce this. This might entail clubs to have smaller squads, but would at least ensure their long term survival. Its madness economics to continue operating as it does currently.

Obviously dividing the $ky pot more equally across the divisions has to be the first step though.
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