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General Palace Discussion General Palace talk - please keep transfer talk in the transfer forum.

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  #941  
Old 14-01-2019, 06:12 PM
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I wouldn't describe Kouyate and McArthur as defensive, they both get forward a fair bit
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  #942  
Old 14-01-2019, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
I wouldn't describe Kouyate and McArthur as defensive, they both get forward a fair bit
They are defensive in the context of they aren't really creative. They'll look to make long runs to get on the end of crosses/half chances granted, but they aren't the sort of player you're going to get orchestrating a game on the ball, pulling the strings and carrying the ball forward with it at their feet. They're still predominantly ball winners that aren't brilliant whilst we're really in possession, which plays a significant part in our poor home form, in my opinion.

Having two players that are offering essentially the same role makes us predictable and easy to defend against. Teams know they can let us have the ball because we're not going to do much with it when we've got no creativity in centre mid. If you take out one of McArthur or Kouyate at home, put Meyer alongside with one going to box to box whilst Meyer pulls the strings, you're going to increase the effectiveness of the player running forward too.

For me the midfield is just incredibly unbalanced, we can get away with that sort of formation against better sides, ball winners in midfield, crowding the game out, winning the ball back then hitting sides on the counter with Kouyate and McArthur running forward into the box is okay. It's just not something that's going to work at home outside of the occasional game when we need to attack a side sitting back.
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  #943  
Old 14-01-2019, 06:34 PM
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I think Meyer has so far been more effective against teams that have attacked us, which kind of contradicts what you are saying.
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Old 14-01-2019, 06:35 PM
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The problem with Kouyate isn't that he's too defensive, it's that he doesn't have enough creativity or passing ability. A player like Yaya Toure in his pomp (extreme example, I know), or even Cabaye would be taking up very similar positions but doing a lot more with the ball.

The thing is, at this level you need midfielders who can both fight for the ball and offer something going forward. It's not like the Championship where you can just stick Owen Garvan behind the strikers and wait for him to get a bit of space. Add to that the fact that we try to play in such a way that Wilf isn't given too much defensive responsibility and there is just no possibility we could add creativity by sacrificing solidity.

That's not an argument against Meyer per se, just that if he does take up a position in a midfield three he will have to get stuck in as much as anyone else. I think he's been alright on the left because the main thing there is keeping shape and protecting the full-back rather than competing physically or putting blocks in.
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Last edited by Excowboy; 14-01-2019 at 06:39 PM.
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  #945  
Old 14-01-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think Meyer has so far been more effective against teams that have attacked us, which kind of contradicts what you are saying.
Not really? Whenever he has played it's usually been with McArthur and kouyate both playing and making runs from deep on the counter. I even made mention of the fact when he's been out wide left some of the link up play with wilf and pva has been great at times. I'm talking in regards to if we're going to stick with the 4-3-3 rather than the narrow 4-4-2, if you want a 3 man midfield you need someone in there who can move the ball about for you. Is there any surprise that someone that can pass and move the ball forward with it at his feet is effective with fast runners and 2 box to box midfielders to aim for on the counter? Not really.
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  #946  
Old 14-01-2019, 06:49 PM
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  #947  
Old 14-01-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LuieJack View Post
The reason we are not near to the bottom of the table is due to our well organised defence, but also to the "workers" in the midfield like McArthur, Kouyate and Luka. We would all love to see us play with flair none more so than myself, but the simple fact is we as a team do not posess players with flair other than WZ and AT and now Meyer but who is feeling his way, and when you struggle to score goals then you have to settle for a more cautious approach and it is that what has kept us out of the Bottom Three.
It was this approach by Roy Hodgson last season that kept us up against all the odds, maybe if he had been backed in the transfer window we could be playing with the flair we would all like to see.
So you ignored my point. Almost completely. The right defensive approach is likely to lose more games than win. We are far more expansive and dare I sayvexciting after we've gone behind. Problem I is it often leaves us little time to do anything about it. If we were set up better using our players in best positions and given a CF a chance...AS..We may at least do better at home
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  #948  
Old 14-01-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think Meyer has so far been more effective against teams that have attacked us, which kind of contradicts what you are saying.
Did you see the Burnley game? They sat back and we were very good with Meyer playing very well indeed.
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  #949  
Old 14-01-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
I wouldn't describe Kouyate and McArthur as defensive, they both get forward a fair bit
I like Kouyate, but his shooting and at times his passing is Sunday league. Think if we’re sticking with a 3 man midfield he should be saved for the big sides personally. Meyer, Luka, Macca for the also rans. We typically dominate possession in those games anyway, so may as well make it more effective and meaningful possession with better ball players. (Tbh I’m just repeating Excowboy and TennesseeKing).
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  #950  
Old 14-01-2019, 08:26 PM
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Did you see the Burnley game? They sat back and we were very good with Meyer playing very well indeed.
I did. I missed the Brighton and West Ham games, though.
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  #951  
Old 15-01-2019, 11:55 AM
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Anonymous?

They never really got in our half, of the 90 minutes probably 85 the ball was in their half. They stuck 9 men defending the final 25 yards.

If you see any training ground drills attack Vs defence in that scenario the defenders usually are very effective. The just need to get something on a ball and clear it.

Meyer has decent passing but Grimsby making the match all in that final 25-30 yards meant there was no space. Our players lack decent movement generally and so the options for anyone were very few.

Dann and Kelly came out top in the poll, is it a coincidence that they were the 2 players in the match who had any space, they were able to carry the ball a long way and then with no options in the congestion had a shot.

When we couldn't get a goal, Grimsby maintained their gameplan hoping for a draw and fair enough. Had we have scored one of our chances and the game opened up a little i think we would have seen a VERY different game. That all our players (except Dann and Kelly) did nothing in the game is IMO down to how the game was played rather than individual issues.
Kind of my point. A good player would be able to find space
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  #952  
Old 19-01-2019, 07:30 PM
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his first goal for palace will get a bit lost after that match
but hope it boosts his confidence
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  #953  
Old 19-01-2019, 07:50 PM
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Hope he starts against Southampton. With their pressing style, we need someone with a bit of composure on the ball.
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  #954  
Old 19-01-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Reg_Maudling View Post
his first goal for palace will get a bit lost after that match
but hope it boosts his confidence
Was very heartening to see - nice knockdown from Wickham (reminded me of Murray), and a calm finish by MM. So many times this season our midfielders panic at the sight of goal. If we get better link up play like this we should be okay.
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  #955  
Old 19-01-2019, 08:07 PM
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Would like to see him given a go against Spurs
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  #956  
Old 19-01-2019, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think Meyer has so far been more effective against teams that have attacked us, which kind of contradicts what you are saying.
I agree.
EDIT that said he was very good against Burnley.

Last edited by Eddie McGoldrick's tash; 19-01-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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  #957  
Old 19-01-2019, 08:38 PM
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The fact that we have Zaha, likely the most gifted offensive player outside the top 6 teams, and we can't score any goals at home, points to our midfield lacking any creativity or passing skill.

I honestly don't understand what Kouyate brings to our midfield. He's not a bad player, but what does he add to the team that we don't already have on the field?

Max isn't great, but at least he's offensive minded. Most games it's like we have 3 forwards and 7 defenders.

Playing at home against Cardiff, I don't want a counterattacking team, because Cardiff isn't going to attack. Get some more offensive players on the field.
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  #958  
Old 19-01-2019, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilbraham413 View Post
The fact that we have Zaha, likely the most gifted offensive player outside the top 6 teams, and we can't score any goals at home, points to our midfield lacking any creativity or passing skill.

I honestly don't understand what Kouyate brings to our midfield. He's not a bad player, but what does he add to the team that we don't already have on the field?

Max isn't great, but at least he's offensive minded. Most games it's like we have 3 forwards and 7 defenders.

Playing at home against Cardiff, I don't want a counterattacking team, because Cardiff isn't going to attack. Get some more offensive players on the field.
Max started at home to Cardiff but he wasn't very good.
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  #959  
Old 19-01-2019, 09:10 PM
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Max started at home to Cardiff but he wasn't very good.
He’s barely started in his actual position.

Why on earth Roy insists on playing him on the left is beyond me.

Get him behind either striker in a 433/4231 and we’ll see how good he is.
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Old 19-01-2019, 09:42 PM
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