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  #3461  
Old 30-06-2020, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Brilliant post.
I second that.
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  #3462  
Old 30-06-2020, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post

Likewise how much white collar crime is there - and is it ever really meaningfully enforced.

If an employee steals from me there is a good chance the employee will be imprisoned, however if I pay my employees below the minimum wage ie steal their wages, I might get a slap on the wrist and told to pay back the money.

We seem to have an incredible acceptance of corporate and white collar crime, even when millions are involved or even when people are seriously injured or even die. Why is that?
This is incorrect. Employees get put away for stealing from their employers, especially large sums. White collar fraud is not tolerated at all.

Quote:
I would like to see our prisons largely emptied and only used for those that pose a genuine physical threat to wider society.
How does that tally with moaning we don't treat white collar crime seriously? What would you suggest if not prison?

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I would certainly decriminalise drugs and use the money raised and saved to provide safety, treatment, and most of all education.
Increase the usage of drugs to educate people to not use drugs?

Quote:
We used to have countless mental hospitals until Thatcher largely closed them, I think that was partly the right policy but for the wrong reason. We do need acute beds but most of all we need funding for early intervention. The earlier intervention in mental health issues the less serious the problem and the quicker the recovery. We recognise this with cancer - why not mental health?

For those that are violent and a genuine threat, they can't be left to harm society but neither should they be put into an environment that will only make them more not less violent when they are released. Yes prison is to protect society, but we have to rehabilitate and, once rehabilitated, allow ex-prisoners to fully integrate back into society as opposed to being forever marked (with a few obvious exceptions, in terms of sex offenders working with kids etc).
This seems confused to me. We don't need mental hospitals but we do need mental hospitals?

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I can't help feel we need less police, but far more community intervention staff - whether that be in the form of social workers, probation officers or mental health workers.
You may have something here, though what happens with people who don't want to be 'intervened'? Do you enforce intervention? What is the sanction for non-compliance? Secure mental hospitals?
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  #3463  
Old 30-06-2020, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Now is an extremely apposite time to pose the questions what is crime, what do we want police for - if at all - and how do we protect and improve society from a criminal justice perspective?

How much police time is involved in dealing with mental illness, drug addiction and poverty. And are the police really the best people to deal with these situations and problems.

Likewise how much white collar crime is there - and is it ever really meaningfully enforced.

If an employee steals from me there is a good chance the employee will be imprisoned, however if I pay my employees below the minimum wage ie steal their wages, I might get a slap on the wrist and told to pay back the money.

We seem to have an incredible acceptance of corporate and white collar crime, even when millions are involved or even when people are seriously injured or even die. Why is that?

I have met a few dangerous sociopaths in my time, all have been gainfully employed and very 'successful'.

It seems to me we pretty much use the police to protect the privileged from the poor.

I would like to see our prisons largely emptied and only used for those that pose a genuine physical threat to wider society.

I would certainly decriminalise drugs and use the money raised and saved to provide safety, treatment, and most of all education.

We used to have countless mental hospitals until Thatcher largely closed them, I think that was partly the right policy but for the wrong reason. We do need acute beds but most of all we need funding for early intervention. The earlier intervention in mental health issues the less serious the problem and the quicker the recovery. We recognise this with cancer - why not mental health?

For those that are violent and a genuine threat, they can't be left to harm society but neither should they be put into an environment that will only make them more not less violent when they are released. Yes prison is to protect society, but we have to rehabilitate and, once rehabilitated, allow ex-prisoners to fully integrate back into society as opposed to being forever marked (with a few obvious exceptions, in terms of sex offenders working with kids etc).

I can't help feel we need less police, but far more community intervention staff - whether that be in the form of social workers, probation officers or mental health workers.

Finally we can not, simply can not allow private enterprise into the justice and prison system. This is about the state and society - not an area for corporations to have a vested interest in crime increasing, putting as many people in jail as possible and keeping them there for as long as possible with the greatest chance of them returning.

The politicians and media whip up emotion and create bogeymen all the time (while excusing whole tranches of corporate crime) so that the public is both scared and screaming for punishment and ever longer jail sentences.

We need to halt that - and stick to evidence based policy.

Why does say Finland has such a small amount of criminality, when they are so reluctant to lock people up and are so 'soft' on crime?

Apologies for the rant
Its rare for me to say but I entirely agree
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  #3464  
Old 30-06-2020, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Now is an extremely apposite time to pose the questions what is crime, what do we want police for - if at all - and how do we protect and improve society from a criminal justice perspective?

How much police time is involved in dealing with mental illness, drug addiction and poverty. And are the police really the best people to deal with these situations and problems.

Likewise how much white collar crime is there - and is it ever really meaningfully enforced.

If an employee steals from me there is a good chance the employee will be imprisoned, however if I pay my employees below the minimum wage ie steal their wages, I might get a slap on the wrist and told to pay back the money.

We seem to have an incredible acceptance of corporate and white collar crime, even when millions are involved or even when people are seriously injured or even die. Why is that?

I have met a few dangerous sociopaths in my time, all have been gainfully employed and very 'successful'.

It seems to me we pretty much use the police to protect the privileged from the poor.

I would like to see our prisons largely emptied and only used for those that pose a genuine physical threat to wider society.

I would certainly decriminalise drugs and use the money raised and saved to provide safety, treatment, and most of all education.

We used to have countless mental hospitals until Thatcher largely closed them, I think that was partly the right policy but for the wrong reason. We do need acute beds but most of all we need funding for early intervention. The earlier intervention in mental health issues the less serious the problem and the quicker the recovery. We recognise this with cancer - why not mental health?

For those that are violent and a genuine threat, they can't be left to harm society but neither should they be put into an environment that will only make them more not less violent when they are released. Yes prison is to protect society, but we have to rehabilitate and, once rehabilitated, allow ex-prisoners to fully integrate back into society as opposed to being forever marked (with a few obvious exceptions, in terms of sex offenders working with kids etc).

I can't help feel we need less police, but far more community intervention staff - whether that be in the form of social workers, probation officers or mental health workers.

Finally we can not, simply can not allow private enterprise into the justice and prison system. This is about the state and society - not an area for corporations to have a vested interest in crime increasing, putting as many people in jail as possible and keeping them there for as long as possible with the greatest chance of them returning.

The politicians and media whip up emotion and create bogeymen all the time (while excusing whole tranches of corporate crime) so that the public is both scared and screaming for punishment and ever longer jail sentences.

We need to halt that - and stick to evidence based policy.

Why does say Finland has such a small amount of criminality, when they are so reluctant to lock people up and are so 'soft' on crime?

Apologies for the rant
Not a rant at all - some very good points. Not sure I agree with all of them, but I do with most of them.
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  #3465  
Old 30-06-2020, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
Then it needs a better slogan. It should be about that money being spent on support services as an addition, not give the impression that it's instead of. Our police service has already been quite radically defunded by the Tories for a decade.
Slogans are almost always s**t, it hard to fit a good arguement onto a placard etc. People, especially so called journalists, really do need to read more than what is being chanted and what is written on the placard.

We're such a lazy species.
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  #3466  
Old 30-06-2020, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Slogans are almost always s**t, it hard to fit a good arguement onto a placard etc. People, especially so called journalists, really do need to read more than what is being chanted and what is written on the placard.

We're such a lazy species.
'Defund the police' has literally no relevance in the UK. The laziness in this case sits with the people slavishly copying American slogans.
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  #3467  
Old 30-06-2020, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Slogans are almost always s**t, it hard to fit a good arguement onto a placard etc. People, especially so called journalists, really do need to read more than what is being chanted and what is written on the placard.

We're such a lazy species.
Slogans aren't written for journalists. They are written to appeal to masses to be digested easily.

You can't call a slogan "Defund The Police" and then complain that the slogan doesn't mean that and people haven't read into it.
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  #3468  
Old 30-06-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Slogans are almost always s**t, it hard to fit a good arguement onto a placard etc. People, especially so called journalists, really do need to read more than what is being chanted and what is written on the placard.

We're such a lazy species.
TLDR
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  #3469  
Old 30-06-2020, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Not a rant at all - some very good points. Not sure I agree with all of them, but I do with most of them.
Itís too scattergun to be able to address.
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  #3470  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:43 PM
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Talking about defunding the police in Britain is crazy.
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  #3471  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Talking about defunding the police in Britain is crazy.
As a slogan I don't think it works well in the UK. But there should certainly be a huge discussion and action around moving funding away from draconian policing methods, and towards other things that can deescalate situations and things that are preventative. Starmer could have broadened in to that discussion but instead just gave a simplistic and blunt answer and called BLM "a moment".
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  #3472  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Within the US, where in some states up to 40% of available budget is spent on the police, it makes sense and has some detailed thinking underlying it (though the slogan remains shit).

In the U.K., where police, CPS and prisons have been obscenely underfunded for years, itís just nonsense.

Itís the worst kind of lazy transplanting of an American idea and applying it like for like here, when the U.K. context is completely different.
like Oreos. We already had Bourbon Creams, And Subway..we already had....wait for it.... Sandwich Shops!
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  #3473  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:54 PM
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It’s not often or ever that I agree with macstar but Oreos are f~cking disgusting.
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  #3474  
Old 30-06-2020, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Talking about defunding the police in Britain is crazy.
The tories managed to do that post 2008
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  #3475  
Old 30-06-2020, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
As a slogan I don't think it works well in the UK. But there should certainly be a huge discussion and action around moving funding away from draconian policing methods, and towards other things that can deescalate situations and things that are preventative. Starmer could have broadened in to that discussion but instead just gave a simplistic and blunt answer and called BLM "a moment".
I agree with deescalation, feel that there are too many sent to prison and support more spend on mental health. I would not support cuts to police funding until the damage done by May Blunderer has been repaired. Re Starmer - he has to remain broadly supportive of the police and their funding but..he does need to also look to step out of the comfort zone.
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  #3476  
Old 30-06-2020, 01:01 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
The tories managed to do that post 2008
That doesn't mean that Starmer should though.
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  #3477  
Old 30-06-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
That doesn't mean that Starmer should though.
Of course it dosen't. I was merely pointing out politicians are happy to cut police funding when it suits them and frankly don't seem to care about the consequences.
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  #3478  
Old 30-06-2020, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
Itís not often or ever that I agree with macstar but Oreos are f~cking disgusting.
Maybe. But you have nevertheless crossed a line.
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  #3479  
Old 30-06-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
I would like to see our prisons largely emptied and only used for those that pose a genuine physical threat to wider society.
t
Right, more time to address this farrago now, so let's start with a simple one.


You think the only threats that people face in the world are physical ones?


(I know several ladies who would argue that this is "such a man's view").
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  #3480  
Old 30-06-2020, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
Itís not often or ever that I agree with macstar but Oreos are f~cking disgusting.
I concur. Hersheys chocolate is totally gross as well.
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