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  #821  
Old 28-06-2019, 11:23 AM
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I hope that no-one is looking for whitewash in Lewes this week. It’s out of stock!

I find the report’s conclusion on the complaints about the knives and knuckledusters claims truly astonishing.

“I am satisfied that Supt Nelson released information which he honestly believed was accurate at the time. Nevertheless, there are some discrepancies in the information released compared to that relayed by Insp D and recorded on the CLIO log and that which was ultimately released to the media before it was subject to verification.

Supt Nelson stated that he believed the information to be true at the time. He added that he has always been a strong advocate for reducing the level of hatred between opposing supporter groups and that he would prefer for the threat to reduce so that less (sic) police officers are required.

To suggest that Supt Nelson had foresight as to the consequences of the release of this information, would suggest that the act was a malicious one. Based on the evidence recorded on the CLIO log, Insp Dias’s account and the EGT footage I have viewed, there is no evidence to suggest that this was a malicious act by Supt Nelson. This complaint is not upheld.”

I simply do not see how these conclusions could be reached on the basis of the evidence set out in the report. I also believe it is nonsense to suggest that Supt Nelson could only have foreseen the consequences of his comments if he had been acting maliciously.

The report states that BHAFC had asked that no information be released to the press until the following day. They also “suggested” that it was “unnecessary” (according to Supt Nelson) to mention knives and knuckledusters. (We only have Supt Nelson’s account of their reasons.)

The following day, Supt Nelson stated that he was telephoned by the Media Officer who was under significant pressure from news agencies to provide a press release.

Therefore, he could have been in no doubt that any statement was likely to attract considerable press interest. He was also aware that such interest was inevitable as there had been some disorder and hundreds of fans had been locked out of the match.

In my view, his statement was couched in inflammatory terms which, as a senior officer, he must have known would be given huge publicity. In his statement he said he had “been a match commander for Albion matches for 12 years, but I have never come across such concerted attempts to cause disorder and engage in violent behaviour.” He added “This was a return to the dark days of football and is not acceptable.”

Finally he said “We are aware that a significant number of people attempted to enter the ground with pyrotechnics, knives and knuckledusters, which were found following efforts to gain access through fire exit doors in the south stand.”

I fail to see how Supt Nelson could have been unable to see that these sensational comments would attract the huge interest they did, particularly references to weapons and the dark days of football.

He tweeted a copy of one such (Daily Telegraph) article on his official account and quoted its headline “Brighton steward suffers broken ribs in violence at Crystal Palace match involving fans 'with knives and knuckledusters'.“ Seemingly, he was proud of the publicity he had received.

It is difficult to see how he could have believed that his comments would help in “reducing the level of hatred between opposing supporter groups” and would help “the threat to reduce so that less (sic) police officers are required.”

As mentioned above, the report says that “there are some discrepancies in the information released compared to that relayed by Insp D and recorded on the CLIO log and that which was ultimately released to the media before it was subject to verification.”

That is a huge understatement. It also fails to explain why the claims could not have been checked since the release was issued in the afternoon on the day following the match.

A police inspector was the source of the report. He said he had been “approached by a steward who mentioned ‘off hand’ how bad the Crystal Palace fans had been and that “they’ve got knives, knuckle dusters and flares”. “He asked (the steward) whether he had seen this and he replied “yes” but when asked if he could provide more information to identify the individuals, or any descriptions of the weapons, the steward replied “no they were masked up and looked similar”. He added that “the steward was not able to provide any further detail regarding what he had allegedly seen and did not come across as entirely reliable”. He stated “that he did not take the stewards details because he was unable to provide any more information than his limited statement and there was nothing evidential (to support it). Inspector added that so officers would be aware he relayed the information that had been passed to him, over the radio (this is recorded at 20:10 hours).”

The log records the following: “timed at 20:09 hours, he relayed the following message: “report from stewards, there’s a couple of people with knives, knuckle dusters and flare guns. They can’t pull them out cos they had balaclavas on”
The call handler replied “confirm they’ve identified them and they are in the crowd?”
Inspector replied “no no, there’s three men but they can’t identify. So they have seen them going in with those weapons, but can’t identify them.”

There are major differences in this and the statement. The log talks of two or three persons being seen with weapons (by a person described by the inspector as not “entirely reliable” and whose name he did not take), not a significant number. There is nowhere any mention of weapons being found. I find it incredible that the contents of the statement could not have been verified against the log before the statement was issued. The match had attracted much media attention and Sussex Police were facing close scrutiny, not least because of the numbers locked out. The allegation about weapons must have seemed like manna from heaven to give a reason to justify their actions which was eagerly seized upon.

It is also the case that on 5 December, a week later, a Sussex Police spokesperson told the Independent that “they had recovered weapons at the scene and that they were now evidence.”

Supt Nelson also, of course, on 7 December, tweeted that the Club had found the items in the away end of the stadium.

How Sussex Police could have remained in ignorance of the true facts for 10 days is astonishing. It is, of course, the case that the “apology” was only issued after the FYP FOI request.

The evidence of the Gold Commander on the night, which he gave on 9 October 2018, is given in the report. He said : "On the night, he recalled being advised about general public disorder by a specific group, some minor assaults on stewards, the throwing of ‘pyros’, storming of a gate and the mention of knives, knuckle dusters and pyros being found. He added that he was not overly concerned as the activity was relatively contained and there were no significant injury assaults or threats with weapons.”

It’s disturbing that such a senior officer should still believe there had been reports of knives and knuckledusters being found so long after the event!

Last edited by coxswain; 28-06-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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  #822  
Old 28-06-2019, 11:50 AM
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I hope that no-one is looking for whitewash in Lewes this week. It’s out of stock!

I find the report’s conclusion on the complaints about the knives and knuckledusters claims truly astonishing.

“I am satisfied that Supt Nelson released information which he honestly believed was accurate at the time. Nevertheless, there are some discrepancies in the information released compared to that relayed by Insp D and recorded on the CLIO log and that which was ultimately released to the media before it was subject to verification.

Supt Nelson stated that he believed the information to be true at the time. He added that he has always been a strong advocate for reducing the level of hatred between opposing supporter groups and that he would prefer for the threat to reduce so that less (sic) police officers are required.

To suggest that Supt Nelson had foresight as to the consequences of the release of this information, would suggest that the act was a malicious one. Based on the evidence recorded on the CLIO log, Insp Dias’s account and the EGT footage I have viewed, there is no evidence to suggest that this was a malicious act by Supt Nelson. This complaint is not upheld.”

I simply do not see how these conclusions could be reached on the basis of the evidence set out in the report. I also believe it is nonsense to suggest that Supt Nelson could only have foreseen the consequences of his comments if he had been acting maliciously.

The report states that BHAFC had asked that no information be released to the press until the following day. They also “suggested” that it was “unnecessary” (according to Supt Nelson) to mention knives and knuckledusters. (We only have Supt Nelson’s account of their reasons.)

The following day, Supt Nelson stated that he was telephoned by the Media Officer who was under significant pressure from news agencies to provide a press release.

Therefore, he could have been in no doubt that any statement was likely to attract considerable press interest. He was also aware that such interest was inevitable as there had been some disorder and hundreds of fans had been locked out of the match.

In my view, his statement was couched in inflammatory terms which, as a senior officer, he must have known would be given huge publicity. In his statement he said he had “been a match commander for Albion matches for 12 years, but I have never come across such concerted attempts to cause disorder and engage in violent behaviour.” He added “This was a return to the dark days of football and is not acceptable.”

Finally he said “We are aware that a significant number of people attempted to enter the ground with pyrotechnics, knives and knuckledusters, which were found following efforts to gain access through fire exit doors in the south stand.”

I fail to see how Supt Nelson could have been unable to see that these sensational comments would attract the huge interest they did, particularly references to weapons and the dark days of football.

He tweeted a copy of one such (Daily Telegraph) article on his official account and quoted its headline “Brighton steward suffers broken ribs in violence at Crystal Palace match involving fans 'with knives and knuckledusters'.“ Seemingly, he was proud of the publicity he had received.

It is difficult to see how he could have believed that his comments would help in “reducing the level of hatred between opposing supporter groups” and would help “the threat to reduce so that less (sic) police officers are required.”

As mentioned above, the report says that “there are some discrepancies in the information released compared to that relayed by Insp D and recorded on the CLIO log and that which was ultimately released to the media before it was subject to verification.”

That is a huge understatement. It also fails to explain why the claims could not have been checked since the release was issued in the afternoon on the day following the match.

A police inspector was the source of the report. He said he had been “approached by a steward who mentioned ‘off hand’ how bad the Crystal Palace fans had been and that “they’ve got knives, knuckle dusters and flares”. “He asked (the steward) whether he had seen this and he replied “yes” but when asked if he could provide more information to identify the individuals, or any descriptions of the weapons, the steward replied “no they were masked up and looked similar”. He added that “the steward was not able to provide any further detail regarding what he had allegedly seen and did not come across as entirely reliable”. He stated “that he did not take the stewards details because he was unable to provide any more information than his limited statement and there was nothing evidential (to support it). Inspector added that so officers would be aware he relayed the information that had been passed to him, over the radio (this is recorded at 20:10 hours).”

The log records the following: “timed at 20:09 hours, he relayed the following message: “report from stewards, there’s a couple of people with knives, knuckle dusters and flare guns. They can’t pull them out cos they had balaclavas on”
The call handler replied “confirm they’ve identified them and they are in the crowd?”
Inspector replied “no no, there’s three men but they can’t identify. So they have seen them going in with those weapons, but can’t identify them.”

There are major differences in this and the statement. The log talks of two or three persons being seen with weapons (by a person described by the inspector as not “entirely reliable” and whose name he did not take), not a significant number. There is nowhere any mention of weapons being found. I find it incredible that the contents of the statement could not have been verified against the log before the statement was issued. The match had attracted much media attention and Sussex Police were facing close scrutiny, not least because of the numbers locked out. The allegation about weapons must have seemed like manna from heaven to give a reason to justify their actions which were eagerly seized upon.

It is also the case that on 5 December, a week later, a Sussex Police spokesperson told the Independent that “they had recovered weapons at the scene and that they were now evidence.”

Supt Nelson also, of course, on 7 December, tweeted that the Club had found the items in the away end of the stadium.

How Sussex Police could have remained in ignorance of the true facts for 10 days is astonishing. It is, of course, the case that the “apology” was only issued after the FYP FOI request.

The evidence of the Gold Commander on the night, which he gave on 9 October 2018, is given in the report. He said : "On the night, he recalled being advised about general public disorder by a specific group, some minor assaults on stewards, the throwing of ‘pyros’, storming of a gate and the mention of knives, knuckle dusters and pyros being found. He added that he was not overly concerned as the activity was relatively contained and there were no significant injury assaults or threats with weapons.”

It’s disturbing that such a senior officer should still believe there had been reports of knives and knuckledusters being found so long after the event!
Supt Nelson took information from an unreliable source, failed to verify it, then released it in a statement which went around the World.

It wasn't just a failure in judgement but at the very least an act of sheer incompetence. Sussex Police's behaviour since, in relation to both our FOI requests, has been shameful.
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  #823  
Old 28-06-2019, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RDSdaEAGLE View Post
Supt Nelson took information from an unreliable source, failed to verify it, then released it in a statement which went around the World.

It wasn't just a failure in judgement but at the very least an act of sheer incompetence. Sussex Police's behaviour since, in relation to both our FOI requests, has been shameful.
The whitewash relies heavily on the account of a man the investigation had concluded needs 'Management Action'.

If he needs action taken his ability and/or integrity are in question, how then can they rely, almost exclusively on his evidence to determine the complaint?
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  #824  
Old 28-06-2019, 12:58 PM
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If a steward told an inspector about knives, flares and knuckledusters why didn't the inspector take details of the steward for future evidence purposes? Surely, if the steward's word was considered trustworthy enough for the chief police officer to mention it in tweets why hasn't the steward been identified to give corroboration?
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  #825  
Old 28-06-2019, 01:05 PM
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If a steward told an inspector about knives, flares and knuckledusters why didn't the inspector take details of the steward for future evidence purposes? Surely, if the steward's word was considered trustworthy enough for the chief police officer to mention it in tweets why hasn't the steward been identified to give corroboration?
Exactly. Wouldn't the police want to know what happened to these weapons? I can't think of a single other occasion where the police has issued a statement about weapons being found without releasing a picture of said weapons.
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  #826  
Old 28-06-2019, 01:21 PM
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I wonder what Supt Nelson makes of the Apollo Moon Landings.
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Old 28-06-2019, 01:21 PM
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Exactly. Wouldn't the police want to know what happened to these weapons? I can't think of a single other occasion where the police has issued a statement about weapons being found without releasing a picture of said weapons.
Quite so. In an FOI request made on 11.12.2017 I asked what efforts they had made to find the weapons. They eventually replied on 13 March 2019 saying that it was confirmed that no weapons had been found. That is not an answer to a question asking if they’d tried to find them. (They also disclosed that it was usual practice for weapons found by stewards etc. to be handed immediately to police.)

I made another FOI request on 15 March asking for details of all efforts to recover the weapons and, if there were none, why given they still believed they found been found in the ground 10 days after the match. Of course they have not responded. ICO have now issued a decision notice requiring them to reply.
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  #828  
Old 28-06-2019, 01:55 PM
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The crap about weapons always felt to me like a hastily made up story to justify the huge police numbers (and cost thereof) from several forces. It still feels to me like it was totally without substance.
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  #829  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:20 PM
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There’s a update on the FSA website.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:35 PM
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There’s a update on the FSA website.
When do compensation claims start?
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:25 PM
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There’s a update on the FSA website.
Well done those who have pursued the Sussex Police.

Here's the link, To view the link you have to Register or Login
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:42 PM
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The backpeddling has started. I wonder if its time for Sussex Police to hold their own Brighton to London cycle ride as they seem so expert at it. However I suggest Superintenent Nelson or Inspector 'D' are not asked to organise it!
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Old 13-07-2019, 10:24 AM
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From the FSA webpage: "It was only through fans coming forward to complaint and persevering that this outcome has been achieved. They are to be congratulated for their efforts."

Not sure the outcome is entirely satisfactory, but spot on re the efforts of those involved, I take my hat off to you.
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Old 13-07-2019, 10:38 AM
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Sussex Police should be told to offer an apology that is as attention grabbing as the false information about Palace fans that they issued back then.

99% of people are only going to remember the accusations of violence and weapons, with 1% knowing about the feeble apology later.

If they genuinely want to improve relations, they can start with a statement in the Brighton v Palace programmes etc.
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Old 13-07-2019, 11:16 AM
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CPFC should take legal action for damage to the clubs reputation.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:11 PM
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Eaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineEaglezz : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by in-exile View Post
CPFC should take legal action for damage to the clubs reputation.
That would be the day
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