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  #41  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara4003
Yes I think so, but technically, he is a loan player so I included his goals in the loanee bit.

Think Dobby is the same, isn't he?
Didn't know that but still not sure about keeping him after his hissy fit on Tuesday that could of messed up the good team spirit .
Good player skills wise but attitude is everything in football.
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  #42  
Old 07-03-2013, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo
The issue is not over loanees.

Every club in the championship can loan 5 or 6 players and name 5 of them in the matchday squad.

They are the only ones who can loan double figures and play them all because whilst we can all utilise the same loophole the rest of us cannot afford it.

The difference is that they have a host of loans which they are not paying the loan fees for that we would have to if we tried to sign a similar number of players from abroad.

If they close the loophole they used this season they say they will just use free transfers to bring in the same/similar players next year, again within the rules but something only they can do.
Which is the correct answer.

It's one for UEFA because you are dealing with three sets of national rules. For example the FA and FL ban the same person/organisation from owning two clubs and (apart from the fact that wedged up in the Carlos Slim league to weather the losses) one of the reasons for this is to prevent this sort of thing. I'm not sure how this works in Italy or Spain but if it's the same, it's a neat little arb between rules.
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  #43  
Old 07-03-2013, 10:19 PM
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The way that Watford are moving forward doesn't sit right with many but is the alternative of languishing at the lower end of the championship through lack of financial clout or spending big and getting massively into debt which seems to be acceptable any better?
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  #44  
Old 08-03-2013, 07:38 AM
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Just goes to show that whatever loan or financial rules the football authorities devise the clubs will just quickly find a loophole.
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  #45  
Old 08-03-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Loans4U
The way that Watford are moving forward doesn't sit right with many but is the alternative of languishing at the lower end of the championship through lack of financial clout or spending big and getting massively into debt which seems to be acceptable any better?
Using the rules as ant othe club can is fine. It is doing things that are not open to your competitor clubs (despite what Watford/fans say) that does not sit right.

If the loans are coming from Udinese/Grenada and you are paying the going rate for those loans then that would be ok, but i don't think you are.

We could probably sign a Czech international striker on loan as well and he could score for fun in this league and not count as a loan player - but how much would we have to pay for the priviliage? That should be an element that is looking into under FFP too.
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  #46  
Old 08-03-2013, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo
Using the rules as ant othe club can is fine. It is doing things that are not open to your competitor clubs (despite what Watford/fans say) that does not sit right.

If the loans are coming from Udinese/Grenada and you are paying the going rate for those loans then that would be ok, but i don't think you are.

We could probably sign a Czech international striker on loan as well and he could score for fun in this league and not count as a loan player - but how much would we have to pay for the priviliage? That should be an element that is looking into under FFP too.

So is it wrong to think outside the box and come up with a different solution which just might allow the club to compete at a high level without breaking the bank ?

What is far worse in the game are the owners who are willing to build up massive debts and causing wage inflation and totally unrealistic transfer fees which cause smaller clubs to either follow suit or become less and less able to compete.
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  #47  
Old 08-03-2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Loans4U
So is it wrong to think outside the box and come up with a different solution which just might allow the club to compete at a high level without breaking the bank ?

What is far worse in the game are the owners who are willing to build up massive debts and causing wage inflation and totally unrealistic transfer fees which cause smaller clubs to either follow suit or become less and less able to compete.
It's not massively different as the debts are almost always shareholder debts, both are unfair competition. You are basically doing the same thing as Manchester City. Someone who is not Watford is simply massively subsidising Watford.

It's not creative, it's just mispricing a transaction in a way that suits Watford to obtain an income stream that it wouldnt' be able to otherwise obtain. It's no different than Manchester City claiming that their sponsorship deal is arms length is a creative solution, it isn't, it's just another means of cheating.

Google transfer pricing.

HTH
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  #48  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
It's not massively different as the debts are almost always shareholder debts, both are unfair competition. You are basically doing the same thing as Manchester City. Someone who is not Watford is simply massively subsidising Watford.

It's not creative, it's just mispricing a transaction in a way that suits Watford to obtain an income stream that it wouldnt' be able to otherwise obtain. It's no different than Manchester City claiming that their sponsorship deal is arms length is a creative solution, it isn't, it's just another means of cheating.

Google transfer pricing.

HTH
The whole FFP scheme is a whole lot of nonsense designed merely to protect the top clubs against new rich owners coming in and doing another chelsea or man city thus threatening their place at the top table. If the football authorities wanted to help football as a whole they should be looking at wage capping, paying proper fees for taking young talent from clubs lower down the pyramid, sharing out tv money more fairly and making sure that tv money gets spent on ground development, reducing ticket prices etc rather than squandered on transfer fees, agents fees and players wages.
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  #49  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loans4U
The whole FFP scheme is a whole lot of nonsense designed merely to protect the top clubs against new rich owners coming in and doing another chelsea or man city thus threatening their place at the top table. If the football authorities wanted to help football as a whole they should be looking at wage capping, paying proper fees for taking young talent from clubs lower down the pyramid, sharing out tv money more fairly and making sure that tv money gets spent on ground development, reducing ticket prices etc rather than squandered on transfer fees, agents fees and players wages.
You haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

Are you seriously suggesting the Football League's Finacial Fair Play rules (i.e. the ones you are abusing) are there to stop clubs in the EPL from doing a Manchester City? The same rules that are totally independent of the EPL ones and that were sorted out some time ago (unlike the EPL ones that were sorted out last week / month).
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Last edited by Adlerhorst; 08-03-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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  #50  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:53 PM
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We'll have to agree to differ

I can only say I have followed my team through thick and thin for over 30 years and for the first time for many years I can see good times ahead.
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  #51  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loans4U
We'll have to agree to differ

I can only say I have followed my team through thick and thin for over 30 years and for the first time for many years I can see good times ahead.
Lots of Chelsea fans and Man City fans have said that over the last few years too. It's short-sighted and self-interested to the point of being myopic.
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  #52  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Loans4U
We'll have to agree to differ

I can only say I have followed my team through thick and thin for over 30 years and for the first time for many years I can see good times ahead.
It's not a case of agreeing to differ, it's a case of you being wrong.
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  #53  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
You haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

Are you seriously suggesting the Football League's Finacial Fair Play rules (i.e. the ones you are abusing) are there to stop clubs in the EPL from doing a Manchester City? The same rules that are totally independent of the EPL ones and that were sorted out some time ago (unlike the EPL ones that were sorted out last week / month).
I think you are being a little harsh on our Watford friend here. The original idea of the UEFA FFP rules was to stop clubs getting into debt. However, the grandee clubs saw it was aimed at them and put pressure on UEFA to come up with a different set of rules based on turnover. So, the established clubs with a large turnover can stay established if they don't act too stupidly and a nouveau riche team is hamstrung from pumping money into their club which proportionately too big compared to turnover. It's true that the FL FFP rules are different, but I think that Udinese and co are playing the long game here.

Coming back to Watford, I was under the impression that the loop hole being exploited is specfically a Football League rule loop hole. The Football League prescribe from which leagues a FL team can take a player counting as a Standard 6- or 12- month loan. These leagues are are all English Leagues. So, a loan from an Italian or Spanish club is excluded from counting towards the 8 Standard loans allowed through the season or the five loan players in a 18 man team list. It's up to the FL to reword their regulations.

If Watford ever get promoted to the PL, then a different set of rules come into play. This season PL teams had to name a squad of up to 25 players, of which no more than 17 players did not fulfil the "Home Grown" criteria. This 25 does not include Under 21 players.

If I remember correctly, Watford have effectively dropped out of Academy football since the Udinese lot took over, which may make it difficult to meet the Home Grown Criteria without dipping into the transfer market?

So on the face of it perhaps the Udinese boys have not done their sums right and have become too successful too quickly with Watford. On the other hand, the whole point of this may have been to tap into the PL's riches especially with the new TV contracts kick in?

The PL doesn't have loans, it has temporary transfers. A club can have two temporary transfers at the same time lasting at least two transfer deadlines but once again the PL prescribes that these come from specific English Leagues. So, a foreign loan is probably counted the same way as it is in the FL.

According to Soccerbase, Granada only have one player on loan from Udinese this season. Perhaps three top level teams will make it easier to balance squads, rather than being overloaded with defenders or strikers?

That's my understanding of it. I'm happy for people to say I'm wrong.
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  #54  
Old 08-03-2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckinger Eagle

If Watford ever get promoted to the PL, then a different set of rules come into play. This season PL teams had to name a squad of up to 25 players, of which no more than 17 players did not fulfil the "Home Grown" criteria. This 25 does not include Under 21 players.

.
The 'home grown' criteria of course does not mean 8 of their 25 Prem squad came through the Watford academy. Just that they came through any English club academy or youth system, even if a decade ago.

As I see it, they could still have 17 Italians from Udinese, 8 'English origin' (for want of the correct term) players then as many other under 21's as they like on top of that (including U21 Italians from Udinese)
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  #55  
Old 08-03-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Neckinger Eagle
I think you are being a little harsh on our Watford friend here. The original idea of the UEFA FFP rules was to stop clubs getting into debt. However, the grandee clubs saw it was aimed at them and put pressure on UEFA to come up with a different set of rules based on turnover. So, the established clubs with a large turnover can stay established if they don't act too stupidly and a nouveau riche team is hamstrung from pumping money into their club which proportionately too big compared to turnover. It's true that the FL FFP rules are different, but I think that Udinese and co are playing the long game here.

Coming back to Watford, I was under the impression that the loop hole being exploited is specfically a Football League rule loop hole. The Football League prescribe from which leagues a FL team can take a player counting as a Standard 6- or 12- month loan. These leagues are are all English Leagues. So, a loan from an Italian or Spanish club is excluded from counting towards the 8 Standard loans allowed through the season or the five loan players in a 18 man team list. It's up to the FL to reword their regulations.

If Watford ever get promoted to the PL, then a different set of rules come into play. This season PL teams had to name a squad of up to 25 players, of which no more than 17 players did not fulfil the "Home Grown" criteria. This 25 does not include Under 21 players.

If I remember correctly, Watford have effectively dropped out of Academy football since the Udinese lot took over, which may make it difficult to meet the Home Grown Criteria without dipping into the transfer market?

So on the face of it perhaps the Udinese boys have not done their sums right and have become too successful too quickly with Watford. On the other hand, the whole point of this may have been to tap into the PL's riches especially with the new TV contracts kick in?

The PL doesn't have loans, it has temporary transfers. A club can have two temporary transfers at the same time lasting at least two transfer deadlines but once again the PL prescribes that these come from specific English Leagues. So, a foreign loan is probably counted the same way as it is in the FL.

According to Soccerbase, Granada only have one player on loan from Udinese this season. Perhaps three top level teams will make it easier to balance squads, rather than being overloaded with defenders or strikers?

That's my understanding of it. I'm happy for people to say I'm wrong.
As Gonzo put it, the "loophole" Watford are exploiting, anyone can exploit, we can borrow 12 players from Udinese and Granada and JUve and whoever, the point is we would have to pay market price, whereas there is not a chance in hell that Watford are paying market price.

If you think about it, I doubt this is even in Watford's interest, as if they are promoted there is a fairly reasonable chance that they are run on a minimum budget and all EPL money will be stripped out and invested in a certain Italian club. It's a nice easy way for Udinese to make a fortune for loaning out some fringe players.

Think about where the biggest disparity in TV revenues is and how easy it would be if you had a load of footballers to throw at someone to exploit that disparity.

And if that's what they are doing i'll concede that it is quite clever.
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Last edited by Adlerhorst; 08-03-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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  #56  
Old 08-03-2013, 05:09 PM
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If they go up, that is a ******* joke. They haven't constructed a side, they have borrowed one. Absolutely bunch of *****.

Hull too, to a certain extent, with their Egyptian ties.

Our ties extend as far as Blackpool.
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adlerhorst
As Gonzo put it, the "loophole" Watford are exploiting, anyone can exploit, we can borrow 12 players from Udinese and Granada and JUve and whoever, the point is we would have to pay market price, whereas there is not a chance in hell that Watford are paying market price.

If you think about it, I doubt this is even in Watford's interest, as if they are promoted there is a fairly reasonable chance that they are run on a minimum budget and all EPL money will be stripped out and invested in a certain Italian club. It's a nice easy way for Udinese to make a fortune for loaning out some fringe players.

Think about where the biggest disparity in TV revenues is and how easy it would be if you had a load of footballers to throw at someone to exploit that disparity.

And if that's what they are doing i'll concede that it is quite clever.
I agree with you.

The only reason the Pozzo's chose Watford was the lure of the PL money. I can't see them investing heavily in Watford (if they reach the PL). I'm sure their loyalties are with the Udinese team.

Interesting that Watford originally applied for Cat 1 Academy status, but when the Pozzo's came in, they asked for the application to be retracted and applied for Cat 3 instead. That would indicate to me they weren't prepared to invest in the Academy according to the EPPP conditions.

It's all very well for Watford fans to say their Academy is still up and running and doing well, but they have left themseves open to so many other Clubs coming in and cherry picking who they want at quite a young age.

Shame really - they had a very good Academy.
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  #58  
Old 08-03-2013, 09:30 PM
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Nobody would be questioning the legitimacy of it if they were down the bottom.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GodstoneEagle
Nobody would be questioning the legitimacy of it if they were down the bottom.

Watford fans would.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMexicanHorse
Yup.

Lot of churlish moaning about Watford on here; they have done nothing wrong.

When Watford use the loan system to their advantage it's 'morally wrong'. When Palace do it it's 'creative'...
I'm not a fan of the loan system, but it's a long standing feature of the game, and one which Palace have to use to stay in touch with their competitors. But like everyone else, Palace must pay the going rate for their loanees, and indeed Dobbie would have been a permanent signing were it not for deadline rules.

Watford have bent the rules without breaking them for sure, but anyone who is defending the nepotistic shuffling around of players between shared ownership clubs is truly bonkers IMO. Competition is the key to a sport's integrity.
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