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  #21  
Old 13-01-2013, 11:12 PM
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So in a nutshell Tony does want repaying and Premier League football is essential for that.
If no Premier League football then BHA fans will just have to pay more for everything.
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  #22  
Old 13-01-2013, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mart63
So in a nutshell Tony does want repaying and Premier League football is essential for that.
If no Premier League football then BHA fans will just have to pay more for everything.

Be fair thats how most clubs operate

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Old 13-01-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pistol Knight
Be fair thats how most clubs operate

I know that,you know that and fans of every other non Premier League clubs know that,it just seems to have taken ages for the BHA lot to understand.
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  #24  
Old 14-01-2013, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mart63
I know that,you know that and fans of every other non Premier League clubs know that,it just seems to have taken ages for the BHA lot to understand.

I dont think they do yet
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Can you imagine the sky commentators making some reference to South Londoners enjoying their day out - cut to a 40 year old in full Palace kit dribbling whilst a mexican wave flies past.
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  #25  
Old 14-01-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Pistol Knight
I dont think they do yet
We did know that! If you remember fans thought we were breaking even (well I did, and I'm sure others did), meaning the fans were paying for everything. One of your fans on here says stadium expansion and land buying doesn't count as operating loss, so hasn't been added to that.
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  #26  
Old 14-01-2013, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by CPFC Since 68
The £8 million I believe was an operating loss so would not include capital costs such as new seats building works etc . That's how I read it anyway.
It also includes the depreciation figure.

Before you ask, I have no idea.

8 million though is an eye watering amount.
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  #27  
Old 14-01-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Fur cough
It also includes the depreciation figure.

Before you ask, I have no idea.

8 million though is an eye watering amount.
And you are blowing £1.4m on a 28 year old striker who has never played English football and is a 2nd tier player in Spain.

That is a bit of a gamble!
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  #28  
Old 14-01-2013, 10:01 AM
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  #29  
Old 14-01-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fur cough
It also includes the depreciation figure.

Before you ask, I have no idea.

8 million though is an eye watering amount.
All weve heard is there's an 8 million loss without any explanation as to how that figure is derived and the club are pushing it as loudly as they can.

Looking at paul barbers form at spurs and vancouver i cant help but think that this is all part of a sofetening up plan before impending price hikes.

If stadium/training ground building is not included as some suggest and we allegedly have a transfer/wages budget that puts us somewhere in the middle of championship clubs, it makes no sense that the club with the highest ST sales and highest home matchday attendence average runs at a bigger loss than clubs spending equal on players and with half the ticket revenues.

Somethings amiss albeit the club havent shown how the 8 million figure is arrived at, and all the talk from smiling assasin paul barber of fans doing more to support the club and increase revenues, im guessing is a ploy to extract more money out of the fanbase with hikes.
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  #30  
Old 14-01-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wehatepalace
Looking at paul barbers form at spurs and vancouver i cant help but think that this is all part of a sofetening up plan before impending price hikes.

.
Modern football, eh? Bring back terracing, and players like Terry Hurlock / Steve Foster / Mark Dennis.
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  #31  
Old 14-01-2013, 10:31 AM
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Silly boy. It will take at least 5+ years from completion to start producing players capable of breaking into your first team and hence creating value. I would estimate that an academy will take over 10 years to start to show a decent return on investment, which is why there are so few decent academies outside of the top flight.
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  #32  
Old 14-01-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by wehatepalace
Looking at paul barbers form at spurs and vancouver i cant help but think that this is all part of a sofetening up plan before impending price hikes.
Almost certain to happen.

Who, if anyone, do you think may get put off the most by any severe rises that may occur, the die hards who may think the club has lost it's identity and can't accept the new identity that it's creating and now feel like customers, or the new fans who may not yet have 'caught the bug' fully when it comes to supporting the club.

Two long term supporters that I know are both a bit annoyed at the recent charges for the Newcastle game, one went but was far from happy, the other didn't go and has put the money towards an away game. he has bought tickets for the Arsenal or Swansea game but only to sell to a couple of Arsenal fans.
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  #33  
Old 14-01-2013, 11:16 AM
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If stadium/training ground building is not included as some suggest and we allegedly have a transfer/wages budget that puts us somewhere in the middle of championship clubs, it makes no sense that the club with the highest ST sales and highest home matchday attendence average runs at a bigger loss than clubs spending equal on players and with half the ticket revenues.
Why does it make no sense? You are running at an £8m defecit, other clubs are running at even bigger losses. Look at the money and the likely wages that Leicester and Cardiff are probably running, already you are in 3rd place in the Wages/Fees expenditure. Chuck in 3 teams relegated last year with Premier League wage bills and you are in 6th place. 2 teams who came down the year before and didn't make it back up and you are in 8th place and in teh middle 3rd of the division. Middlesboroughs wage bill is also supposedly amongst the highest and Hull must be getting that way too.

The parachute payments in the first year are worth more money than the revenue for most clubs in this division, the other 2 years will push those clubs to the highest revenues too.

You may have an average wage bill and pay average transfer fees for this division but you are not running at the biggest losses and you do not have the biggest source of income either. Just to bring it home, if you have 20,000 ST holders at £400 a pop (which is probably a big over estimate) that will only bring in the value of the 3rd and 4th year of parachute payments!
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  #34  
Old 14-01-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo
Why does it make no sense? You are running at an £8m defecit, other clubs are running at even bigger losses. Look at the money and the likely wages that Leicester and Cardiff are probably running, already you are in 3rd place in the Wages/Fees expenditure. Chuck in 3 teams relegated last year with Premier League wage bills and you are in 6th place. 2 teams who came down the year before and didn't make it back up and you are in 8th place and in teh middle 3rd of the division. Middlesboroughs wage bill is also supposedly amongst the highest and Hull must be getting that way too.

The parachute payments in the first year are worth more money than the revenue for most clubs in this division, the other 2 years will push those clubs to the highest revenues too.

You may have an average wage bill and pay average transfer fees for this division but you are not running at the biggest losses and you do not have the biggest source of income either. Just to bring it home, if you have 20,000 ST holders at £400 a pop (which is probably a big over estimate) that will only bring in the value of the 3rd and 4th year of parachute payments!
Well you seem more clued up than me GG, i assume the playing budget is wages/transfer fees.... And poyet has said a few times we are between 12th and 18th in the division.

We have over 22k STH and gates around 24-25k at over 400 a pop, the cheapest is 400, 1901 over a grand. I know some clubs have bigger losses, but to compare most clubs of medium means our revenues should be greater and our expenditure equal though losses greater.

Without the benefit of knowing how that 8 million figure is exactly derived i just cant see how the sums add up, and with the club keen to shout it from the rooftops allied to barbers numerous interviews on fans contrubuting more and increasing revenues, i cant help but agree with Penstone Eagle, my hunch is that its being exploited to drive up the average prices of fans like me.... I can afford it, i'm sure many can't. Look forward to actually seeing the accounts and seeing the breakdown of costs.

To compare brighton to palace in simplistic terms, you run at 5 mill loss (better this year due cup run), and if we took out mckail smith we'd be similar at 5 mill. I would guess beyond that our transfer ins/outs have a rough parity, you bought a few player in the high hundreds of k's and flogged ambrose and that bloke to huddesrsfield, we did about the same buckley in, noone out. Our revenue should be sufficiently higher without building costs?
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  #35  
Old 14-01-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wehatepalace
We have over 22k STH and gates around 24-25k at over 400 a pop, the cheapest is 400, 1901 over a grand.
No its not. That might be the adult price but you probably have child, OAP and maybe student discounts. Recently I think our owners posted that they planned an extra discounted package for younger fans which went beyond 18 years of age, i think due to the number of young people who cannot find work and therefore afford football.

The result of that may mean for the first time the 'full price' tickets will be in the minority.

Even if you just have OAP and child that probably accounts for close to 35% of your ST holders so an average of £400 might be closer to the truth than you think.

Almost every Championship club loses money each year, its just about how much (Look at Bristol City's losses!) and so every clubs has to end up stretching themselves to remain competitive. FFP should help addresss this and hopefully bring wages down to a more sustainable level. Even is Gus is right and you are in 12th-18th place on playing costs, they are probably still unsustainable long term. (As are ours)
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Old 14-01-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo
No its not. That might be the adult price but you probably have child, OAP and maybe student discounts. Recently I think our owners posted that they planned an extra discounted package for younger fans which went beyond 18 years of age, i think due to the number of young people who cannot find work and therefore afford football.

The result of that may mean for the first time the 'full price' tickets will be in the minority.

Even if you just have OAP and child that probably accounts for close to 35% of your ST holders so an average of £400 might be closer to the truth than you think.

Almost every Championship club loses money each year, its just about how much (Look at Bristol City's losses!) and so every clubs has to end up stretching themselves to remain competitive. FFP should help addresss this and hopefully bring wages down to a more sustainable level. Even is Gus is right and you are in 12th-18th place on playing costs, they are probably still unsustainable long term. (As are ours)
Yes youre right, i didnt think about consessions.... And i agree such losses are not sustainable for any club. We have been told that even with 8 mill loss we are within FFP rules, but i doubt Bloom is up for that type of shortfall once a year. Next season we will have new shirt sponsor and i'm guessing now our profile is sufficient to do better than a local recruitment agency..... But still believe this will be being used now to drive up prices as all the hints suggest.

Paul Barber doesnt give a f**k about hardcore or long standing fans, he will be judged purely on revenue in and bottom lines for the business. my guess is he'd be much happier with a stadium full of plastics paying more money, as is the way with many prem clubs and this is the way he's moving.

Without prejudice or ridicule for a second, the position of our clubs is now different on this front. Last season we were just trying to fill the stadium and offer deals like direct debit to make it happen, this year with all STH sold and a waiting list theyre seemingly moving strategy to squeeze maximum out of each "customer"

Palace with your kids and promotional ticket offers are still trying to fill existing capacity, but you will surely find yourself in the same predicament when you get your new mordernised stadium and the numbers increase as a result..which they will. hardcore palace like you will also see the soul of your club being watered down by plastics and then once you get to a critical mass, everything sold to the highest bidder regardless of your loyalty or association.

We're all lifelong fans of a football club, but the moneymen dont really give a f**k if they can make more from whomever that is. Its just lip service.

Rant over
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Old 14-01-2013, 01:06 PM
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Interesting it is. Glad to see a logical non-partisan conversation going on in the away end for once.
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Old 14-01-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wehatepalace
Yes youre right, i didnt think about consessions.... And i agree such losses are not sustainable for any club. We have been told that even with 8 mill loss we are within FFP rules, but i doubt Bloom is up for that type of shortfall once a year. Next season we will have new shirt sponsor and i'm guessing now our profile is sufficient to do better than a local recruitment agency..... But still believe this will be being used now to drive up prices as all the hints suggest.

Paul Barber doesnt give a f**k about hardcore or long standing fans, he will be judged purely on revenue in and bottom lines for the business. my guess is he'd be much happier with a stadium full of plastics paying more money, as is the way with many prem clubs and this is the way he's moving.

Without prejudice or ridicule for a second, the position of our clubs is now different on this front. Last season we were just trying to fill the stadium and offer deals like direct debit to make it happen, this year with all STH sold and a waiting list theyre seemingly moving strategy to squeeze maximum out of each "customer"

Palace with your kids and promotional ticket offers are still trying to fill existing capacity, but you will surely find yourself in the same predicament when you get your new mordernised stadium and the numbers increase as a result..which they will. hardcore palace like you will also see the soul of your club being watered down by plastics and then once you get to a critical mass, everything sold to the highest bidder regardless of your loyalty or association.

We're all lifelong fans of a football club, but the moneymen dont really give a f**k if they can make more from whomever that is. Its just lip service.

Rant over
Depends how we do things.

You have built a brand new stadium which cost a lot more than its construction cost with all the legal battles there were over 10 years and you now plan to build an Academy which will cost a fair few quid. That Academy may be built within 2 years, but the process of developing talent will take the best part of a decade unless you already have them in your centre of excellence.

We have a ground (albeit one that needs updating) and we have our academy (although a new training ground, to be owned by fans, is being proposed) and so we have no NEED for a massive capital outlay.

Should we stay in the Championship i think we will look to carry on as we are at Selhurst for the forseeable future, selling the odd good youngster every year or so to balance the books. (Selling Wilf for the fees being discussed will get close to wiping out our deficits of teh last 3 years)

If we get promoted of course our costs will go up but the season of money and then either that continued or the parachute payments will give us an income that will help to develop new grounds etc etc.

There is a sustainable model for each circumstance at Palace, but i am not sure how long it will take for you guys to find sustainability without Premier League money, and it is a big question as to whether you will ever get that.
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Old 14-01-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wigman
We will have soon.
Sadly by then, the ability to make money from the products of the academy will be greatly reduced by the EPPP voted in by Tony.
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Old 14-01-2013, 03:30 PM
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