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  #601  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
This is absolutely brilliant (and something I'd love to see much more of). Seeing this, and some more widely shared footage of people coming together against injustice is what we need far more of.

Sadly though, there still seem to be people in high places far more keen to talk about and show the moments where the protests have turned ugly. It's almost as if painting a picture of hate and division suits some people . . . . . . .
I mostly agree. But I would add that the sheriff in the video says that what's needed is a parade not a protest. I don't agree with that, I think protest is needed.
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  #602  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Looters might not, but rioters most certainly could do. The issue here is police brutality, racism within the police and the almost defacto justification of any violent response by the police, including killing as justifed in law.

It kind of suggests that you cannot trust the police, that they're prone to use of excessive force knowing that they'll be protected. Its not surprising that rioting is the response, given the very people / organisation being protested are policing the protested.

That said, I'm impressed at reports of police and sheriffs departments and officers, who have taken a knee or joined protesters - rather than line up to defend the indefensible. They're a credit, just like those who will protect others during the riots and unrest from harm from the mob.

When your justified and very valid protests are ignored, handwaved and dismissed and the victims are criminalised and demonised, the only way you'll get anything changed is when you stop being reasonable and peaceful, and become unreasonable and fight back against the system that is validating Police killings in the most unacceptable of crimes (passing a forged note, being pulled over for a broken tail light or routine stop).

F** the police chiefs, the police unions, the politicians and the cops who close ranks to protect their own - Because they will ignore you until they're made to listen. They've had decades to resolve an issue within their ranks and done f**k all. The US police has always had a f**king terrible reputation for having a criminally negligent approch to human life.
Great posts.
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  #603  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
F** the police chiefs, the police unions, the politicians and the cops who close ranks to protect their own - Because they will ignore you until they're made to listen. They've had decades to resolve an issue within their ranks and done f**k all. The US police has always had a f**king terrible reputation for having a criminally negligent approch to human life.
It was a good post, spoilt by this final paragraph, where you make the sort of generalisations that you would deplore if it was a policeman making it about protesters, lumping them all into one anonymous mass.
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  #604  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It was a good post, spoilt by this final paragraph, where you make the sort of generalisations that you would deplore if it was a policeman making it about protesters, lumping them all into one anonymous mass.
No my intent it's specifically about those who close ranks and pprotect their own regardless. Those police officers who have shown support, and those politically who seem change, I respect.

I'd rather the rioters and looters were turning over cop statons, city hall, courts, that they were burning down the homes of racist governers, rather than local stores etc.
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  #605  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:10 AM
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You can only object to injustice and systemic brutality, by accpeting the terms and conditions of those who perpetuate the injustice and brutality. Protestors should definately take back their protest as much as possible, but peaceful, I disagree, people who are subject to violence, should retain the right to defend themselves, and those around them from violence.

Its pretty clear that in the US, there is an inherent problem with Police Power and that police violence and killing is 'justified and protected'. People absolutely have the right to self defence, and to defend others.

If you want change, you can't just sit down an idly obey in the hope that justice will prevail, especially given this problem is older than most people on here (it was a unchecked problem in the 20s)
I agree to a certain extent but I wonder if you felt the same when Croydon was on fire in 2011? Were you at Selhurst when the Morley's family who had to watch as their generations old business was burnt to the ground? Didn't hear much of this sort of sentiment on the day.

Violence just entrenches positions. The way to change things is to exert influence, vote (inc putting up candidates from your community), join the Police and and move opinion polls. Nothing breeds change like opinion polls.
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  #606  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:14 AM
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Yes. Rockbottom was emptied in those riots ; the next door shop, with much less valuable contents, was largely left alone.
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  #607  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
I heard of either a mayor or police chief in another place who said something along the lines of we have listened to what you want and you have told us you want less of visible and confrontational policing during this time of protest, so we will hang around in the background and make our presence less visible.

There are also photos of a group of black protesters forming a ring of protection around a white police officer who had found himself cut off from his colleagues.

All these examples need highlighting as they send a strong message that regardless of skin colour that the vast majority of people are reasonable and fair and that compassion and fairness can triumph over anger and hate. Sometimes people just need examples to encourage them to get in touch with that side of their nature so as not to adopt a factional stance.

As you say there is a strong argument to be made that conflict and anger is important to some with influence so as to maintain their powerbase. Look no further than Trump to see the truth in that.

100% agree. I actually edited the post you quoted quite substantially as I did find a couple of much more widely shared clips promoting the unity /decency message. But the point that too many powerful people seem to be keen to sow division still holds when you look at the balance of coverage. That's something we all have to come together against imho
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  #608  
Old 03-06-2020, 09:46 AM
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This man let in 80 protesters to his house so they could escape the beatings from police.
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  #609  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:22 AM
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This man let in 80 protesters to his house so they could escape the beatings from police.

It doesnt mention those 80 were gonna get a beating
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  #610  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
No my intent it's specifically about those who close ranks and pprotect their own regardless. Those police officers who have shown support, and those politically who seem change, I respect.

I'd rather the rioters and looters were turning over cop statons, city hall, courts, that they were burning down the homes of racist governers, rather than local stores etc.
Id rather that there were no rioters or looters, just protesters protesting for justice and against rascism
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  #611  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:45 AM
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It doesnt mention those 80 were gonna get a beating
You might want to try watching the video.
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  #612  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You might want to try watching the video.

It wont play on my phone...but if you say the video shows police giving them 80 protesters a pasting... Ill trust ya
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  #613  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:56 AM
dogstar721 dogstar721 is offline
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I agree to a certain extent but I wonder if you felt the same when Croydon was on fire in 2011? Were you at Selhurst when the Morley's family who had to watch as their generations old business was burnt to the ground? Didn't hear much of this sort of sentiment on the day.

Violence just entrenches positions. The way to change things is to exert influence, vote (inc putting up candidates from your community), join the Police and and move opinion polls. Nothing breeds change like opinion polls.
I'm not sure the London Riots are directly comparable, given the degree of police brutality and acceptance in the UK is significantly lower. But I'm not really keen on necessarily burning businesses to the ground.

The position of the police and politicians in the US has been entrenched for decades against the black community, and the acceptance of violence and extra judical killings by the police was well established by the 50s, when they were battering down MLK and the Civil Rights Protestors and getting away with it.

Violence begats violence. This isn't a moral issue about who can win the top trumps on the high ground, thats never going to change anything, when the District Attorney, Governers, Mayors and Police Commissioners are dependent on the support of Police Unions far more than they are on the general public - especially poor black people.

If you just do what they say you can do, voice your concern in the way they say you can, follow the rules that allow for injustice - all you will achieve is the decades of silence that has allowed Police Officers to kill with relative impunity and react with excessive force to the most minor of offences.

Being in the right, isn't clearly enough, and if action isn't taken by the authorities to recifify something so serious, so wrong and so cruel, then the people will, and must, eventually take action themselves, confronting violence with violence if necessary.

Political discourse is all well and good, like voting and civilised behaviour, but occassionally, and increasingly, it seems the state and government, politicians and authorities need to be reminded that the reason we have civilised behaviour towards means of change, is because the alternative is insurrection.

Democracy works best, when those with power remember that prior to democracy, political change came at a very significant cost to those in power, and that they represent the people, not their own interests.
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  #614  
Old 03-06-2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Swoonara View Post
Id rather that there were no rioters or looters, just protesters protesting for justice and against rascism
Yes, and I'd rather politicians and the police were reasonable, and that everyone got a fair deal. Unfortunately thats not the world, what I'd prefer isn't the reality, and the rioting, if not necessarily the looting, isnt an irrational approch to the impunity with which cops get to kill black people.
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  #615  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Vicmo View Post
Violence just entrenches positions. The way to change things is to exert influence, vote (inc putting up candidates from your community), join the Police and and move opinion polls. Nothing breeds change like opinion polls.
This is part of the reason why they're angry.

They tried peaceful protest. They had a black president. They vote, they petition, they campaign. Have done for generations. But the system is entrenched; there is no motive for the system to change and no immediately obvious way for the populace to create a motive for change.

You're speaking from an immense position of privilege if you look at that anger and think they've somehow missed the obvious tactics to create change.

"Why don't they simply kneel in protest?"

Because they still get gassed, blocked from jobs and reported to their employers.

"Why don't they simply vote out their representatives?"

Because the electoral college is essentially rigged and decades of gerrymandering has made it almost impossible for black communities to have a voice politically. And local governors cannot control police authorities.

It goes round and round in circles.

This thread explains the living nightmare of the US justice system better than I can.
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Without wanting to justify the violence, I do want to justify the anger and illustrate why this is happening, even though it makes us uncomfortable and raises awkward moral questions.
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  #616  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Yes, and I'd rather politicians and the police were reasonable, and that everyone got a fair deal. Unfortunately thats not the world, what I'd prefer isn't the reality, and the rioting, if not necessarily the looting, isnt an irrational approch to the impunity with which cops get to kill black people.
Whilst valid, this incident has the potential for real change. If thousands of people are using it to nick the latest Nike trainers or 42 inch tvs from totally unrelated businesses its not going to help things.
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  #617  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:36 AM
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Whilst valid, this incident has the potential for real change. If thousands of people are using it to nick the latest Nike trainers or 42 inch tvs from totally unrelated businesses its not going to help things.
I'm not really sure what anyone wants the protesters to do about this, or why it's anything to do with them?

There is anti social crime all the time, and high levels of crime in the US, including the uglier side we have seen. If people are using general situations for their anti-social acts, that's not any responsibility of protesters. I've not seen any protest leaders come out and say go out and steal TVs.
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  #618  
Old 03-06-2020, 11:47 AM
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Whilst valid, this incident has the potential for real change. If thousands of people are using it to nick the latest Nike trainers or 42 inch tvs from totally unrelated businesses its not going to help things.
Rodney King didn't change things, the cops were cleared of excessive force. The ensuing roots and looting certainly resulted in the authorities of state having to act, and even then only two officers were found guilty.

Meaning, for one black man to get justice for a totally unjustifable beating at the hands of four cops, 63 people had to die. Even then only two officers were convicted.
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  #619  
Old 03-06-2020, 12:26 PM
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I mostly agree. But I would add that the sheriff in the video says that what's needed is a parade not a protest. I don't agree with that, I think protest is needed.
What is the different between protest and parade in your view, and is there different levels/forms of protest?
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Old 03-06-2020, 12:36 PM
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This is part of the reason why they're angry.

They tried peaceful protest. They had a black president. They vote, they petition, they campaign. Have done for generations. But the system is entrenched; there is no motive for the system to change and no immediately obvious way for the populace to create a motive for change.

You're speaking from an immense position of privilege if you look at that anger and think they've somehow missed the obvious tactics to create change.

"Why don't they simply kneel in protest?"

Because they still get gassed, blocked from jobs and reported to their employers.

"Why don't they simply vote out their representatives?"

Because the electoral college is essentially rigged and decades of gerrymandering has made it almost impossible for black communities to have a voice politically. And local governors cannot control police authorities.

It goes round and round in circles.

This thread explains the living nightmare of the US justice system better than I can.
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Without wanting to justify the violence, I do want to justify the anger and illustrate why this is happening, even though it makes us uncomfortable and raises awkward moral questions.
This is all a very complex issue. I feel that underling tension felt by a community requires a spark to create change, which the murder of George Floyd is. How that spark then demonstrates itself in a 'collective movement' is the divisive issue here, I'm in full agreement that 'the formal channels of change' with government and representation have proved to be a deadend whether by design or by institutional failure to represent the needs of people, however the actions of the 'collective movement' becomes a question of what is acceptable and where you sit on the Dr Martin Luther King - Malcolm X spectrum for change. I think this is where are lot of people are disagreeing here, not on whether America has racism, brutality in it's policeforce or whether George Floyd was murdered or not, but more a question of what you feel philosophically about the best way to affect change in a society.

I personally agree with the principals of MLK, and still think you can have a protest that gets noticed and creates change without violence. This is where it gets even more complex, as are there opportunists that are using the protest as camouflage for their own ends and they are not representative of the heart of the group? is there a heart of the group? as there is no figure head or certifiable group who is dictating this, can you blame the actions on the cause? Maybe in time a figurehead will come to the fore, as currently this is chaos without a set goal over than the notion that things need to change, but we need someone or something to say what to and how this can be done, to negotiate and quell the masses, as MLK did. maybe Black Lives Matter do state this, but I haven't come across it? Please point out if they do.
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