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  #181  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:01 PM
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The police have completely lost control of the situation and this is more likely to make Beijing send in reinforcements from the mainland. Any Hong Konger who is known to the authorities should consider emigrating.
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  #182  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:02 PM
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Not sure what the solution is though. I support HK and don't like China at all because of they way they treat their people. But if Chinese or HK police violence is wrong, so is HK protesters violence. They need to find a non-violent path forwards. I think it would be possible, they need to reach out and connect to others ... Britain, EU, UN, Taiwan, India, Australia, USA etc ...
The protests hadn't been violent until the police (China) upped the anti. I can find no logic in blaming the protesters. China is led by a vile, merciless, cynical and corrupt totalitarian regime. We simply should not be trading with them. But they are a power, like the Saudis, and the stench of hypocrisy and fear is overpowering .
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  #183  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:12 PM
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The protests hadn't been violent until the police (China) upped the anti.
"Two wrongs don't make a right" etc. If violence is wrong, then saying the other side started it is no justification. And it risks losing the protesters support.
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  #184  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:18 PM
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"Two wrongs don't make a right" etc. If violence is wrong, then saying the other side started it is no justification. And it risks losing the protesters support.
Should they stand there and be shot?
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  #185  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
The protests hadn't been violent until the police (China) upped the anti. I can find no logic in blaming the protesters. China is led by a vile, merciless, cynical and corrupt totalitarian regime. We simply should not be trading with them. But they are a power, like the Saudis, and the stench of hypocrisy and fear is overpowering .
Agreed.
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  #186  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:29 PM
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You only need to look at what is happening in Xiangang to know how totalitarian China is.

My heart goes out to Hong Kongers, I support their cause and salute their bravery
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  #187  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:34 PM
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I went across China in 1989, and haven't forgotten. Of course it must have changed massively, but the regime is still the regime.
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  #188  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:38 PM
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You only need to look at what is happening in Xiangang to know how totalitarian China is.

My heart goes out to Hong Kongers, I support their cause and salute their bravery
Xinjiang is different gravy altogether. If only the Hong Kong population would behave like Xinjiang population and do dying, or do being interred, or do doing what they are told to, or do just not telling the press what was going on then China would be finding this whole thing far easier.

And now the global PR for PRC’s big day has been utterly ruined. I mean Chian want to celebrate China’s newfound power and might, and someone visualises that by having a state actor shoot a member of the public for refusing to not protest, (which is probably a pretty accurate visualisation but doesn’t mean China isn’t going to be seriously seriously pissed).
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  #189  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:20 AM
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You only need to look at what is happening in Xiangang to know how totalitarian China is.

My heart goes out to Hong Kongers, I support their cause and salute their bravery
Have you read anything about the First and Second East Turkestan Republics? Very depressing indeed.
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  #190  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:33 AM
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The regime survives because of the social contract that they have with the people. If the regime provides stability and increased living standards then the (mainland) people are happy to have increasingly reduced rights and mainland Chinese with the obvious exception of Uighers and Tibetians don't consider themselves oppressed, I think to understand it you have to look at the complete shit show that was Chinese history from 1840-1978 has resulted in a craving for stability and a control freak mentality, there's no mainland youth movement that will ever do what is happening in HK unless...unless the CPC ever fails in living up to their end of the contract in which case what will happen in every mainland city will make HK look like a picnic in comparison, CPC is well aware of this, that's why all that surplus housing got built, why they stockpile massive reserves of pork and rice, they are preparing for the day their luck runs out.

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  #191  
Old 02-10-2019, 01:30 AM
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The regime survives because of the social contract that have with the people. If the regime provides stability and increased living standards then the (mainland) people are happy to have increasingly reduced rights and mainland Chinese with the obvious exception of Uighers and Tibetians don't consider themselves oppressed, I think to understand it you have to look at the complete shit show that was Chinese history from 1840-1978 has resulted in a craving for stability and a control freak mentality, there's no mainland youth movement that will ever do what is happening in HK unless...unless the CPC ever fails in living up to their end of the contract in which case what will happen in every mainland city will make HK look like a picnic in comparison, CPC is well aware of this, that's why all that surplus housing got built, why they stockpile massive reserves of pork and rice, they are preparing for the day their luck runs out.
Interesting and insightful historical perspective.

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there's no mainland youth movement that will ever do what is happening in HK
The Beijing Tiananmen Square protests in 1989?

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  #192  
Old 02-10-2019, 02:12 AM
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I think the early 90s being when China's economic rise started to change the lives of ordinary people made it easier for people to bury Tiananmen to the back of their minds and state controlled media probably didn't hurt.

Sad really I heard the surviving students got bitter and just sunk into the system viewing their cause as hopeless. Can't find it now but I recall a twitter thread from months back where an American businessman in HK once recalled working with an angry middle aged mainlander, a Chinese gammon (sweet but mostly sour pork?) if you will. "F*ck America! CPC can do no wrong! Chinese century coming! Taiwan is ours" a right pain in the arse so the guy was surprised to find out that Chinese Biggin was one of the students back on the front lines in 1989.

It's this image rather than the tank one that I always think of when Tiananmen comes up, I wonder if alive where they are now and what they are thinking as HK looks like it could explode at any moment.

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  #193  
Old 02-10-2019, 05:59 AM
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We don’t have to look far back in British history to understand what Skin Up is saying.
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  #194  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:05 AM
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"Two wrongs don't make a right" etc. If violence is wrong, then saying the other side started it is no justification. And it risks losing the protesters support.
1989
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  #195  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:07 AM
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I cannot remember the phrase in Mandarin now but there is a whole greater good of China mentality going on on the mainland that drove behaviour, and something that your average westerner like me, simply struggles to get their heads around as we simply don’t have it.

Actually that’s across the piece. The value system is just utterly different to that of the west. Couple that with the Xi cult thing and ou just get something that’s hard to comprehend or even understand what the rules really are.
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  #196  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
I think the early 90s being when China's economic rise started to change the lives of ordinary people made it easier for people to bury Tiananmen to the back of their minds and state controlled media probably didn't hurt.

Sad really I heard the surviving students got bitter and just sunk into the system viewing their cause as hopeless. Can't find it now but I recall a twitter thread from months back where an American businessman in HK once recalled working with an angry middle aged mainlander, a Chinese gammon (sweet but mostly sour pork?) if you will. "F*ck America! CPC can do no wrong! Chinese century coming! Taiwan is ours" a right pain in the arse so the guy was surprised to find out that Chinese Biggin was one of the students back on the front lines in 1989.

It's this image rather than the tank one that I always think of when Tiananmen comes up, I wonder if alive where they are now and what they are thinking as HK looks like it could explode at any moment.

it wasn't just student protesting in 1989 what freaked the powers out was workers and local citizens joining in too... now in HK the protesters also have support of some citizens...
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  #197  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:24 AM
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I cannot remember the phrase in Mandarin now but there is a whole greater good of China mentality going on on the mainland that drove behaviour, and something that your average westerner like me, simply struggles to get their heads around as we simply donít have it.

Actually thatís across the piece. The value system is just utterly different to that of the west. Couple that with the Xi cult thing and ou just get something thatís hard to comprehend or even understand what the rules really are.
I really canít see this. I donít think this mentality is lacking in the west, at all. These are stories we tell ourselves - we are as good as anyone at looking the other way. The British were always able to ignore what the state did in Northern Ireland, for one recent example. What you see in China is an absence of the incentives provided by a democracy with universal suffrage, perhaps.
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  #198  
Old 02-10-2019, 06:40 AM
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I really can’t see this. I don’t think this mentality is lacking in the west, at all. These are stories we tell ourselves - we are as good as anyone at looking the other way. The British were always able to ignore what the state did in Northern Ireland, for one recent example. What you see in China is an absence of the incentives provided by a democracy with universal suffrage, perhaps.
I spent two years working / taking the Chinese yuan very recently. I literally saw it. The seven senior westerners in function I worked in used to have fairly regular discussions about what our professional integrity could tolerate and whether this or that event was too much. I was the first to leave (but then I was the youngest and the only one not coming up to retirement). There are two left now.

I appreciate we are awesome at looking the other way, but in the next 50 years the rules of the world are going to change dramatically. And we’re going to find the new world a very odd place.

Someone referred to 1840 earlier. The term the Chinese use for 1840 to, well frankly a number of different events from 1945 onwards is the century of humiliation or the lost century or something like that.
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  #199  
Old 02-10-2019, 07:13 AM
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The protests hadn't been violent until the police (China) upped the anti. I can find no logic in blaming the protesters. China is led by a vile, merciless, cynical and corrupt totalitarian regime. We simply should not be trading with them. But they are a power, like the Saudis, and the stench of hypocrisy and fear is overpowering .
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Old 02-10-2019, 08:53 AM
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I don't want to sound cynical, but when did we ever refuse to trade with a country on moral grounds? Saudi Arabia is a whole other level, we're selling them arms to bomb civilians in the Yemen.
Did we refuse to deal with the apartheid US in the 50s? Did the US impose trade sanctions on Nazi Germany?
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