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  #11401  
Old 31-07-2021, 12:24 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
The true sad fact is that the electorate under the FPTP system, will never elect the doctrine of the traditional old left. Labour has to modernise and be relevant, and it has to change, to actually get into power. Once in power, then maybe we can work towards something a bit better. Sniping from the comfort of a desired but unachievable socialist purism out of power is demoralising and futile.
But the final aim of Starmer, and indeed Labour, is just taking the edge off barbarity, they donít pretend to offer more.

Donít you think thatís grim that that is all humanity can achieve?
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  #11402  
Old 31-07-2021, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
How will this precisely help agency workers, builders forced into the CIS scheme or those working under the banner of Deliveroo, Pimlico Plumbers or in the parcels industry?
All in all itís pitiful as said. But apparently thatís as good as it gets.
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  #11403  
Old 31-07-2021, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Yes.

And we go back to the circular discussion that yes I’ll vote labour (despite the nonsense post by DM). But if being a bit better than the Tories is as good as it gets for humanity, then that’s depressing and grim. And ultimately that’s all someone like Starmer offers. Taking the edge of the misery that capitalism causes. (And apparently the barbarity of this system isn’t extreme…)
just remember CR you enable such "barbarity"
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  #11404  
Old 31-07-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
But apparently thatís as good as it gets.
No one has stated that except your tedious self....
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  #11405  
Old 31-07-2021, 01:03 PM
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This message is hidden because weltklasse is on your ignore list.
Lovely.
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  #11406  
Old 31-07-2021, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Lovely]
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
No one has stated that except your tedious self....
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  #11407  
Old 31-07-2021, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Lovely.
obsessed you are...its not a good look
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  #11408  
Old 31-07-2021, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
But the final aim of Starmer, and indeed Labour, is just taking the edge off barbarity, they donít pretend to offer more.

Donít you think thatís grim that that is all humanity can achieve?
Where has he said this?

As you know, I am still a bit on the fence over him, and am awaiting to see what transpires. This employment law policy is a good start, and there is more to come. The "barbarity" has to end, but it can only end when the barbarians are sent packing. Navel gazing will not achieve this.
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  #11409  
Old 31-07-2021, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Where has he said this?

As you know, I am still a bit on the fence over him, and am awaiting to see what transpires. This employment law policy is a good start, and there is more to come. The "barbarity" has to end, but it can only end when the barbarians are sent packing. Navel gazing will not achieve this.
And the very word 'barbarity' is daft.
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  #11410  
Old 31-07-2021, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
And the very word 'barbarity' is daft.
Why? Is millions dying of starvation, war and preventable diseases every year, while others have billions, not barbaric?
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  #11411  
Old 31-07-2021, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Lol, and the response was exactly what I would have thought
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  #11412  
Old 31-07-2021, 06:47 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Where has he said this?

As you know, I am still a bit on the fence over him, and am awaiting to see what transpires. This employment law policy is a good start, and there is more to come. The "barbarity" has to end, but it can only end when the barbarians are sent packing. Navel gazing will not achieve this.
What you think Starmer wants to seriously challenge capitalism?

I admit that fundamentally changing the system will be very difficult but it wonít happen under labour. Even under corbyn the best that could have happened is that a more radical alternative could have been built.
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  #11413  
Old 31-07-2021, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Why? Is millions dying of starvation, war and preventable diseases every year, while others have billions, not barbaric?
There is barbarism in the world. I just don't see it in the UK, the only place where I'm allowed to vote. I don't even consider the current government to be barbaric. Corrupt, lying and incompetent? Of course. But not barbaric
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  #11414  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
What you think Starmer wants to seriously challenge capitalism?

I admit that fundamentally changing the system will be very difficult but it wonít happen under labour. Even under corbyn the best that could have happened is that a more radical alternative could have been built.
Labour can challenge capitalism in a variety of different ways, in the degree and quality of the challenge. Can any party in the UK, win power in the foreseeable future on a ticket of replacing capitalism, say with communism? Absolutely no chance.

However, I can see a government of the future controlling the worst excesses of capitalism, and a model based on the community, where the land, for example, is owned by the community, for the community. I can envisage new and old companies owned by its own staff and workers, say something similar to the John Lewis shareholding model. I can see a state education system that is as good if not better than the private sector, and of course a properly secured and funded NHS. Re-nationalisation of the railways, Royal Mail, Water and electricity, to follow when the contracted franchises end. All possible potentially, many of which would be popular, if properly formulated. Nothing in my view in that short list that could not be embraced by a centre left Labour leader, like Starmer.
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  #11415  
Old 01-08-2021, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
There is barbarism in the world. I just don't see it in the UK, the only place where I'm allowed to vote. I don't even consider the current government to be barbaric. Corrupt, lying and incompetent? Of course. But not barbaric
But the U.K. is intrinsically connected to the wider system. Leaving aside the UKís role in wars, the finance capital, hedge funds, wealth, multinationals etc are all totally dependent on the wider misery of capitalism. Then of course there is the arms trade.
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  #11416  
Old 01-08-2021, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Labour can challenge capitalism in a variety of different ways, in the degree and quality of the challenge. Can any party in the UK, win power in the foreseeable future on a ticket of replacing capitalism, say with communism? Absolutely no chance.

However, I can see a government of the future controlling the worst excesses of capitalism, and a model based on the community, where the land, for example, is owned by the community, for the community. I can envisage new and old companies owned by its own staff and workers, say something similar to the John Lewis shareholding model. I can see a state education system that is as good if not better than the private sector, and of course a properly secured and funded NHS. Re-nationalisation of the railways, Royal Mail, Water and electricity, to follow when the contracted franchises end. All possible potentially, many of which would be popular, if properly formulated. Nothing in my view in that short list that could not be embraced by a centre left Labour leader, like Starmer.
John Lewis has been pretty rubbish to itís workers at times. That aside the main way workers will change things is self empowerment and in turn thatís why the single most powerful thing that could be done is scrapping the anti union laws and there is zero chance Starmer will do that. He will instead follow the model of bestowing a few changes.

I would be very surprised if Starmer gets remotely close to the list of things youíve put above. But again though I would ask why is this all humanity can do? Are we really that backward and reactionary as a species?
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  #11417  
Old 01-08-2021, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
But the U.K. is intrinsically connected to the wider system. Leaving aside the UK’s role in wars, the finance capital, hedge funds, wealth, multinationals etc are all totally dependent on the wider misery of capitalism. Then of course there is the arms trade.
CR is also intrinsically connected to the wider system he despises so much. Apparently the cooperative/partnership model is rubbish too. LOL
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  #11418  
Old 01-08-2021, 10:47 AM
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I would be very surprised if Starmer gets remotely close to the list of things youíve put above. But again though I would ask why is this all humanity can do? Are we really that backward and reactionary as a species?
Of course not CR. It is a mistake to think that anything like your and my aspirations can be achieved merely through the ballot box. Humanity is far wider and deeper than that. Political parties can only try and reflect the will of enough of the electorate to get them into power at any given time. It does not automatically follow that then humanity will prevail. It is up to each and everyone of us to change or influence that will by example and spreading the word personally, both in and out of politics. Bland politics is probably the least effective vehicle to do that.
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  #11419  
Old 01-08-2021, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
Of course not CR. It is a mistake to think that anything like your and my aspirations can be achieved merely through the ballot box. Humanity is far wider and deeper than that. Political parties can only try and reflect the will of enough of the electorate to get them into power at any given time. It does not automatically follow that then humanity will prevail. It is up to each and everyone of us to change or influence that will by example and spreading the word personally, both in and out of politics. Bland politics is probably the least effective vehicle to do that.
Youíre a good man SE25! I enjoy your reflective and thoughtful posts.
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  #11420  
Old 01-08-2021, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
There is barbarism in the world. I just don't see it in the UK, the only place where I'm allowed to vote. I don't even consider the current government to be barbaric. Corrupt, lying and incompetent? Of course. But not barbaric
The pandemic death toll is not barbarism?
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