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  #41  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ifill Over View Post
What I am saying is that I am happy to discuss pollution and mans impact on the environment elsewhere on other threads. The sun and Grand Solar Minimum (GSM) is not pollution so why discuss it here.

However, we might want to discuss the impact GSM will have or is having on our lives, keeping warm and feeding ourselves. Climbing on to the roof of your house to clear off the snow from your solar panels every couple of hours is not practical.
So what are you proposing?
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  #42  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ifill Over View Post
Thank you TennesseeKing, it is good for the science community to highlight their concerns. It is also easy for us all to dismiss findings that do not fit with our own bias.

With regard to her input data which has been observed and recorded for the past 400 years, it is significant a larger and a better quality set of data available than for human observed global temperatures.

Good science is learning from errors and adjusting your findings and improving your work.

We know the earth is a Goldilocks planet, to say that being closer to the sun does not warm the planet does not make logical sense to me. With regard to the Tim Rice comment, distance sun moves around the barycentre does not mean the distance change. The only way this constant could exist is if all the planetary bodies moved with the sun. Tim is careful with his words, he does not categorically say the distance is always constant with the movement of the barycentre.
Sorry mate but good science isn't producing a paper with fundamental flaws, pointed out numerous times by people far more qualified than me or you stating that there are very basic errors within it therefore it should be withdrawn because it's "embarrassing".

The point is, it's a single paper. One that jumps to very serious conclusions with little evidence behind it at all. Any scientific paper that jumps to such unsubstantiated claims is a waste of time. If she was to suggest it *could* have something to do with global warming but it needs to be studied further it wouldn't have been crucified so badly, but the lead author jumped to conclusions numerous times instead and went on to whine and complain on pubpeer when people pointed out its problems.

Hence, it's not easy at all to dismiss findings that fit our bias in this case. It's been completely destroyed due to the fact it's a poorly produced paper with huge errors rather than bias. If the science was solid the scientific community wouldn't be destroying it.
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  #43  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fang View Post
Is it increasing the acidity of the oceans too?
For anyone who wants to read a bit more into ocean acidification.
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Abstract
Ocean acidification is a global challenge that faces marine organisms in the near future with a predicted rapid drop in pH of up to 0.4 units by the end of this century. Effects of the change in ocean carbon chemistry and pH on the development, growth and fitness of marine animals are well documented. Recent evidence also suggests that a range of chemically mediated behaviours and interactions in marine fish and invertebrates will be affected. Marine animals use chemical cues, for example, to detect predators, for settlement, homing and reproduction. But, while effects of high CO2 conditions on these behaviours are described across many species, little is known about the underlying mechanisms, particularly in invertebrates. Here, we investigate the direct influence of future oceanic pH conditions on the structure and function of three peptide signalling molecules with an interdisciplinary combination of methods. NMR spectroscopy and quantum chemical calculations were used to assess the direct molecular influence of pH on the peptide cues, and we tested the functionality of the cues in different pH conditions using behavioural bioassays with shore crabs (Carcinus maenas) as a model system. We found that peptide signalling cues are susceptible to protonation in future pH conditions, which will alter their overall charge. We also show that structure and electrostatic properties important for receptor binding differ significantly between the peptide forms present today and the protonated signalling peptides likely to be dominating in future oceans. The bioassays suggest an impaired functionality of the signalling peptides at low pH. Physiological changes due to high CO2 conditions were found to play a less significant role in influencing the investigated behaviour. From our results, we conclude that the change of charge, structure and consequently function of signalling molecules presents one possible mechanism to explain altered behaviour under future oceanic pH conditions.
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  #44  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TennesseeKing View Post
I do have a question for those who claim to be climate change skeptics.

If you believe that it's predominantly the sun causing climate change rather than CO2.

Where do you stand on carbon emissions causing issues for the ocean? Do we continue as we are regardless of impact? Is it such a minimal issue that people don't care about the effect we're having?

Just curious. Do people that believe that climate change is naturally occurring even care about the impacts of CO2?
I have posted a response here To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #45  
Old 08-11-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ifill Over View Post
No doubt there will be ridicule, unlike the UN/IPCC I will have the Science Papers to back up my claims, which can be replicated by those who wish to do so.
I've not bothered to read the whole thread. You deserve ridicule simply for saying that the UN/IPCC do not have 'Science Papers'.
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  #46  
Old 08-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cockles View Post
Do you think the Sun does NOT warm the planet?
LOL

That's brilliant question

Where's that dumb things people say thread?
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  #47  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CP-RJW View Post
The vast majority of climate change deniers are right wing/leaning as far as I can tell. They generally have an affinity for corporations, or believe some kind of nonsense about a globalist, world government trying to control us. Essentially a conspiracy-ish step up from a right winger who doesn’t like big government on a national level. And then sometimes it can be linked to explicit anti Semitism, like that Aussie fella one of the deniers cited on the other thread (who’s name escapes me).

I don’t particularly see the ‘cultish’ element of the left on climate change though. Sure you have a few weirdos who turn up to extinction rebellion protests and make the news for the wrong reasons that probably qualify, but outside of that? It’s just accepting scientific consensus. Whereas every climate change denier I’ve encountered has some kind of ludicrous or silly belief not supported by science that you’d expect from a cultist.
Of course, you are right to point out that climate change deniers so often have a vested, often corporate, interest in their denial, which makes up a large portion of Right-Wing opposition to the concept. Corporate hegemony is also a foundation stone for the general technocracy and kleptocracy which the West has become since Reagan, a state of being which has sparked so much of the excessive Leftism going on, which itself is largely an overreaction by a people who justifiably feel democratically underrepresented, if represented at all, by a political class owned by the Establishment for decades.

However, there is also the Right Wing theory that the Left is so wedded to Climate Change theories because it helps strengthen their ideological aims, such as increasing state governance over corporate growth / influence, reducing corporate wealth, increasing ( and thus promoting ) collectivist practices in society and justifying back-door socialistic initiatives, such as increasing the Minimum Wage, which is included within the Green New Deal despite having only a tangential connection to the theory / issue of climate Change. Remember that much of modern socialism is driven by Fabian Stratagems, ( it is the cornerstone of Labour's 'Fabian Society' ) in which, instead of hoping to get the masses to literally revolt against Elite control, an attritional 'slow game' approach is taken in which capitalistic systems are gradually pecked away. From that perspective, ( not one I necessarly endorse but am fascinated by ) the Right see Climate Change as, at least, partially used as a gambit to promote socialist norms without having to win elections.

My point is just that Climate Change is a political football, just like everything else worth arguing about and, like so many other political hot potatoes, the issues themselves are not best served by the tribalistic ideologies and jealous refusals of the Left and Right to objectively debate issues. If any 'truth' exists, it gets lost in the shuffle.

I do generally support the scientific consensus because it is a consensus. But consensus are famously proven wrong in history and the data surrounding Climate Change is so indescribably complex and open to conscious or even unconscious bias. I do think we should 'Act' because what if Climate Change is real? But put a gun to my head? I don't know if Climate Change really is man-made. If you look past the narrative of the issue, which is so dominated by Left-Wing media analysis, there is data and experts swinging both ways. I try to balance my media 'political programming,' to have some semblance of objectivity in this increasing tribal world, by exposing myself to roughly equal amounts of agenda and propaganda from both political sides and have seen arguments that claim the data is so massaged by Climate Change advocates that the idea of a 'scientific consensus' is a castle built on sand.

As always, and with increasing age, I find myself refusing to commit myself to any ideology in which my 'knowledge' is autodidactic. I am not a climate expert of either political hue and wasn't there, first hand, to see how objectively or assiduously the raw data was collected or collated so can't say I'm convinced either way. I know political 'truth' is normally just ideology wrapped in justification and massaged statistics. However, I stick with the idea we should be prudent and make changes to, at least, lower general rates of pollution or wastefulness. They alone are issues worth tackling. But I'm glad not to have to be the one to decide if the gigantic costs and systemic upheavals of the Green New Deal are a price we really need to pay for the survival of civilization. Because I don't bloody well know and don't think anyone else does either.

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  #48  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:14 PM
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But I'm glad not to have to be the one to decide if the gigantic costs and systemic upheavals of the Green New Deal are a price we really need to pay for the survival of civilization. Because I don't bloody well know and don't think anyone else does either.
Tell you what then, let's just continue to pay into the gigantic profits of oil and petroleum industry shall we? And don't for get the costs of maintaining the oil and petroleum industry either - how much has the western world spent on wars because oil is involved?
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  #49  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:21 PM
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Tell you what then, let's just continue to pay into the gigantic profits of oil and petroleum industry shall we? And don't for get the costs of maintaining the oil and petroleum industry either - how much has the western world spent on wars because oil is involved?
You responded as if I stated an opposition to the Green New Deal. That's the trouble with not completely taking a side, I guess. People assume you can only be against them.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:25 PM
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you said "But I'm glad not to have to be the one to decide"... whilst you may not wish to "take a side" that statement pretty much says you're willing to go along with the status quo
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:33 PM
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It's not a question of whether we need to slash greenhouse gas emissions but how it is done and at what speed. The best way to decarbonise gas for heating for example or the effectiveness of carbon sequestration are two issues that are not yet crystal clear. There's also an issue around how much citizens including even the most committed environmentalists are willing to sacrifice in terms of lifestyles and travelling. It will be interesting to see how flight shaming or a cruise equivalent take off.
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  #52  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:42 PM
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you said "But I'm glad not to have to be the one to decide"... whilst you may not wish to "take a side" that statement pretty much says you're willing to go along with the status quo
I already stated we should 'act' out of prudence, in case Climate Change is man made. My stating that I'm glad not to 'have to decide' means nothing more than the fact I am objectively unconvinced, because I don't pretend to know more than I do. It doesn't mean I am willing to go along with any 'status quo' because I am not in a position to rail against it or not, since I am not empowered to decide such matters. If I were, I would have to decide on my stand and, like I have already stated, I would go with the prudent option of 'acting' to minimize climate change. My statement that I am glad not to have to make such a black / white decision, of immense importance, was just a reflection of the horrible complexities to be grasped. As always, there is always someone who cannot abide ideological diffidence, based on a lack of confidence as to what constitutes fact or truth in the matter.

I suggest you save your partizan energy for someone who disagrees with you more. Unless total agreement is all you can tolerate?
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SOUTHGATE EAGLE View Post
I already stated we should 'act' out of prudence, in case Climate Change is man made. My stating that I'm glad not to 'have to decide' means nothing more than the fact I am objectively unconvinced, because I don't pretend to know more than I do. It doesn't mean I am willing to go along with any 'status quo' because I am not in a position to rail against it or not, since I am not empowered to decide such matters. If I were, I would have to decide on my stand and, like I have already stated, I would go with the prudent option of 'acting' to minimize climate change. My statement that I am glad not to have to make such a black / white decision, of immense importance, was just a reflection of the horrible complexities to be grasped. As always, there is always someone who cannot abide ideological diffidence, based on a lack of confidence as to what constitutes fact or truth in the matter.

I suggest you save your partizan energy for someone who disagrees with you more. Unless total agreement is all you can tolerate?
I’m inclined to think that total agreement is all I can tolerate. It seems you’re basing your fence sitting on the big decisions because you’re not totally convinced by the scientific claims. That, I can understand But the reality of that, and imagine if everyone took your view, is that nothing significant would change. My thoughts are that logically we need to find a replacement for energy from oil. Even if you are slightly sceptical about the climate data and conclusions, implementing as much renewable methods of generating energy can only make sense. Putting it off this big decision by claiming you’re not sure about the climate science when there are other very good reasons for accepting the change, is just the same as accepting the status quo.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:19 PM
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I’m inclined to think that total agreement is all I can tolerate. It seems you’re basing your fence sitting on the big decisions because you’re not totally convinced by the scientific claims. That, I can understand But the reality of that, and imagine if everyone took your view, is that nothing significant would change. My thoughts are that logically we need to find a replacement for energy from oil. Even if you are slightly sceptical about the climate data and conclusions, implementing as much renewable methods of generating energy can only make sense. Putting it off this big decision by claiming you’re not sure about the climate science when there are other very good reasons for accepting the change, is just the same as accepting the status quo.
The last sentence is an ideological argument rather than a practical initiative and while I see your point as an ideological imperative, it is indicative of the hysterical, tribalistic narratives that have destroyed objective debate in politics in recent decades.

'With us or against us' doesn't win the kind of genuine commitment it desires. At best, it cows or shames people into mindsets they don't really believe but are scared to question ( such as PC issues ) or makes truly individualistic people resist out of principle, or hardens the 'with us or against us' attitude of the other side, in turn. What it never does it let anyone win. The only way to get your way with ultimatums or absolutisms is via the threat of military consequences and that hardly applies here.

I know that, if we are up against a climate 'clock,' the time for debate is over and humanity must act but humanity must also be united for such global action to happen. The politically tribal aspect to climate change is a major reason for log jam. Look, I know I'm not offering solutions here. I'm just saying I don't see the ground work in place for the level of conviction required to meaningfully act in the manner demanded by those who believe in climate change. It won't happen. Period, as they say in your country.

All that's left now is the hope that the apocalypse predicted to come within a generation is an exaggeration or a misreading of data. This ship has too many vying Captains to change course, even if we are heading straight at a ( melting ) iceberg.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:41 AM
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I've not bothered to read the whole thread. You deserve ridicule simply for saying that the UN/IPCC do not have 'Science Papers'.
That is not what I said, you have twisted my words. I do not wish to discuss UN/IPCC CO2 here, happy to discuss on other threads.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:49 AM
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Classic Solar Minimum Jet Stream behaviour and formation over North America next week.
Expect cold records to be set for November.

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Old 09-11-2019, 09:47 AM
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Ifill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Bearing in mind the tragic flooding yesterday in South Yorkshire attached is an article on the influence of solar activity changes on European rainfall. The analysis highlights that rainfall are actually triggered by the solar minimum some 3–4 years before the rainfall month.

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The role of the solar cycle in the relationship between the North Atlantic Oscillation and Northern Hemisphere surface temperatures is also mentioned in the article have a further link regarding this below.

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Old 09-11-2019, 11:59 AM
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Can this thread be merged with the climate change thread? It is essentially just the OP trying to be pedantic by saying that this a different reason for climate change.

Or maybe the Snow is Comming thread as now he seems confused by weather.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:28 PM
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Ifill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietIfill Over came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
It is not a Climate Change thread it is a Grand Solar Minimum Thread. Other posters bring climate change into it. I would rather they did not.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:45 PM
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It is not a Climate Change thread it is a Grand Solar Minimum Thread. Other posters bring climate change into it. I would rather they did not.

Your opening post indicates it is about Climate

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I have decided to create this thread to put up an alternative view of the climate
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