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  #19981  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:27 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So what? Does that mean I should object to people from stoke and cardiff coming to London? I mean they haven't paid any council taxes and haven't paid any tax to the GLA.

Also a lot of northerners are culturally different and will take jobs at lower wages.
It means that the UK is one country and that people in Stoke have paid taxes to the UK government, including paying for activities in London (and the other way round) so should have the automatic right to work and move around their own country. For example, their taxes and lottery purchases have helped to fund the V&A, Whitehall, the Olympics etc in the same way taxes from London have helped to fund Stoke. Obvious I would have thought.
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  #19982  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:32 PM
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We need to repossess them for a pittance, and send them on their way with a boot up their backside
Flipping heck. I agree with Christopher Biggineagle. I'm gonna note this in my diary tis so rare.
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  #19983  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
It means that the UK is one country and that people in Stoke have paid taxes to the UK government, including paying for activities in London (and the other way round) so should have the automatic right to work and move around their own country. For example, their taxes and lottery purchases have helped to fund the V&A, Whitehall, the Olympics etc in the same way taxes from London have helped to fund Stoke. Obvious I would have thought.
Lots of people have paid taxes to UK government. Do foreigners who have paid a tax have same rights? Some will never have been here
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  #19984  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
Lots of people have paid taxes to UK government. Do foreigners who have paid a tax have same rights? Some will never have been here
UK citizens living in say Stoke will have done a number of the following - paid state taxes, been eligible for jury service, may have fought in the military, paid council taxes, attended or sent their kids to school, bought lottery tickets, donated to charities, been part of community organisations, been generally part of the community, spent money in the shops and utilities, worked in public services. So of course they should have the automatic right to move from Stoke or Cardiff to London.
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  #19985  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:41 PM
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Plenty of other people will have done some or most of those things. I don't see how you can have a coherent argument based on your check list
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  #19986  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
Plenty of other people will have done some or most of those things. I don't see how you can have a coherent argument based on your check list
CockneyRebel asked why should someone from Cardiff or Stoke be allowed to go to London but not someone from Canada. My response is that the UK is one country and people living here will have played a contribution in society and be citizens of this country, so obviously will have free movement in the UK. There may also be those living in Canada who are eligible to come and live here and have done many of the things I mention. However, right now there isn't an automatic reciprocal right for people to move between Britain and Canada. Yes, I do for example feel slightly uncomfortable with the current situation as I do feel that it should be easier for those with family relatives from, say, Jamaica to come here.
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  #19987  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
It means that the UK is one country and that people in Stoke have paid taxes to the UK government, including paying for activities in London (and the other way round) so should have the automatic right to work and move around their own country. For example, their taxes and lottery purchases have helped to fund the V&A, Whitehall, the Olympics etc in the same way taxes from London have helped to fund Stoke. Obvious I would have thought.
Paid in and 'taken out' though right. Stoke would almost certainly be a net beneficiary - not that it really matters. The point being, a migrant has not paid in but has not taken out either so I'm not sure any of this matters.
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  #19988  
Old 23-01-2017, 12:59 PM
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Sure, I was just trying to answer CockneyRebel's point that why should people from Stoke be allowed to come to London but not someone from Canada? My point is that as they live within the UK they will have contributed in a myriad of financial and non-financial ways so there is no conceivable argument for stopping Stokies coming to London although I would like to see jobs moved from London to Stoke. Whether, to answer Cockneyrebel's question Canadians should have the same right to work in London as Stoke residents is up for debate.
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  #19989  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:06 PM
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Well, this is an argument that deserves pride of place on page one thousand of this thread. The Cardiff conundrum; the Stoke stumper.
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  #19990  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
CockneyRebel asked why should someone from Cardiff or Stoke be allowed to go to London but not someone from Canada. My response is that the UK is one country and people living here will have played a contribution in society and be citizens of this country, so obviously will have free movement in the UK. There may also be those living in Canada who are eligible to come and live here and have done many of the things I mention. However, right now there isn't an automatic reciprocal right for people to move between Britain and Canada. Yes, I do for example feel slightly uncomfortable with the current situation as I do feel that it should be easier for those with family relatives from, say, Jamaica to come here.
Tax has nothing to do with it. The laws of who can and can’t come are set by the UK’s sovereign Parliament. Parliament can choose to bind itself through accepting a treaty that requires a change of the law. It can change its mind and repeal a treaty. This has always been the case even since 1972. Parliament chose to join the EU and accept the EU rules and can now choose to leave. Parliament has control over the majority of immigrants who come from outside of the EU – although we have signed other treaties that bind the UK on entry and exit at our borders Parliament can choose to repeal these too. For example some of our visa polices with the US go back to 1815 but we could repeal this treaty if we wish too.

Parliament could also decree that people who live in Stoke or Cardiff can’t come to London. There is no constitutional guarantee of internal freedom of movement beyond Protocol 4 of the European Convention of Human Rights. If Parliament wants to intern all the people of Cardiff behind barbed wire fences all it needs to do is repeal the ECHR and pass a Cardiff internment law.

This is our constitution. Different countries have a different constitution but that’s the way the UK works.

I’m sure the Jamaican government would be happy to strike reciprocal rights to move with the UK. It’s the UK that has the net migration target and has made things hard for Jamaicans. Canada has its own programme to encourage long term migration. We do not reciprocate what they already offer UK citizens.
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  #19991  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It's easy to square. The retirement age has gone up as the rich want to squeeze every bit they can out of workers and pay them less pensions. However the ageing population will need more and more support.

Of course there are jobs available. When a population goes up, supply and demand goes up. It's not complicated, otherwise the USA and China would have collapsed decades ago.
the retirement age has gone up since people are living longer
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  #19992  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:39 PM
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I am a bit confused? All I was trying to do was justify why I thought that people living within the UK should have an automatic right to move around the UK whilst those from Canada might not automtaically (although they might under certain circumstances). I'm not sure what is so controversial, or does everyone agree with CockneyRebel that there should be automatic free movement from workers around the world?
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  #19993  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by eaglejez View Post
the retirement age has gone up since people are living longer
and starting work later and interest rates are lower and the tax advantages of pensions aren't what they were and financial services managers charge lots of money..... (okay the last one may be a bit unfair).
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  #19994  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
I am a bit confused? All I was trying to do was justify why I thought that people living within the UK should have an automatic right to move around the UK whilst those from Canada might not automtaically (although they might under certain circumstances). I'm not sure what is so controversial, or does everyone agree with CockneyRebel that there should be automatic free movement from workers around the world?
I thought it controversial you equated citizenship with tax contribution. That is irrelevant
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  #19995  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:48 PM
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Lots of people have paid taxes to UK government. Do foreigners who have paid a tax have same rights? Some will never have been here
what about UK nationals living in tax havens who come back to live in the UK
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  #19996  
Old 23-01-2017, 01:54 PM
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I am a bit confused? All I was trying to do was justify why I thought that people living within the UK should have an automatic right to move around the UK whilst those from Canada might not automtaically (although they might under certain circumstances). I'm not sure what is so controversial, or does everyone agree with CockneyRebel that there should be automatic free movement from workers around the world?
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  #19997  
Old 23-01-2017, 02:40 PM
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We need to repossess them for a pittance, and send them on their way with a boot up their backside
So you are pro renationalisation?
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  #19998  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
It means that the UK is one country and that people in Stoke have paid taxes to the UK government, including paying for activities in London (and the other way round) so should have the automatic right to work and move around their own country. For example, their taxes and lottery purchases have helped to fund the V&A, Whitehall, the Olympics etc in the same way taxes from London have helped to fund Stoke. Obvious I would have thought.
So what if people have paid taxes? Again people in Stoke haven't paid any taxes to local government in London or for the GLA, so why should they move here by your rationale? What about 18 year olds that haven't paid any tax yet, should they have to stay in their town?

It's not obvious what you're saying at all. In the USA no one says that people moving about causes more unemployment or affects wages. It's just a total and utter bullshit logic.
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  #19999  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:02 PM
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Flipping heck. I agree with Christopher Biggineagle. I'm gonna note this in my diary tis so rare.
Well I would agree with taking back all companies that were privatised for a pittance. Whether they are foreign owned or not.
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Old 23-01-2017, 03:09 PM
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So what if people have paid taxes? Again people in Stoke haven't paid any taxes to local government in London or for the GLA, so why should they move here by your rationale? What about 18 year olds that haven't paid any tax yet, should they have to stay in their town?

It's not obvious what you're saying at all. In the USA no one says that people moving about causes more unemployment or affects wages. It's just a total and utter bullshit logic.
A significant portion of local government taxes are paid for out of central government funding, lottery grants are paid for out of the national lottery and public sector wages in London are paid for out of national taxes - just like the other way round. So yes Stoke people have paid taxes to support London as the other way round. In any case I think Stoke people should be able to move to London and I think those in Ohio should be able to move to New York. That is a free market and free movement within a sovereign country so I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
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