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  #41  
Old 26-11-2021, 07:44 AM
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Innovatory and visionary thinking of company owners.
They have been especially innovatory and visionary the last 18 months.
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  #42  
Old 26-11-2021, 09:19 AM
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Innovatory and visionary thinking of company owners.
Thatís not where the profit ultimately comes from. Once ideas are put in to practice it comes from the effort of the workers.
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  #43  
Old 26-11-2021, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
CR your world can only be implemented and enforced through the abuse of power, worse abuses than occur now.

Capitalism and competetiveness are part of us humans, just like love, selflessness and cooperation are also part of us.

Society and individuals are nowhere near to being advanced enough to make what you want work without subjegation. Moreover your world would be dull and bureaucratic.

Far better is to educate, evolve and harness the competetive spirit and hard work for more social benefit.

We need to eliminate poverty, stop fixating on eliminating all the rich. Equality of opportunity and rights is where we need to get to first of.

If some want to then work harder, innovate and take risk so that they contribute more and gain more then great. Why would you want to restrict such activity
I know this debate has been done many times but again I would say human nature is hugely effected by society and itís values. And we are in a society which pushes extremely negative ones. If human nature was set why do you get such a huge spectrum of people.

We are told that any other society is impossible or would be worse but I think itís no more the case thar itís impossible to move on to a more progressive society than capitalism than it was to move on from feudalism to capitalism.

Working harder, innovation and creativity can not only exist in a system that doesnít have profit but need as the driving force but flourish. Not only is capitalism dull and bureaucratic but for many for billions itís far worse.

Capitalism is all around the world and authoritarianism is growing, the planet is being destroyed, and inequality is growing as wages stagnate. The idea in my mind that capitalism can continue to improve things is totally utopian, the proof is all around us.
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  #44  
Old 26-11-2021, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post

Far better is to educate, evolve and harness the competetive spirit and hard work for more social benefit.
But capitalism does not reward this, so this is no less a fantasy than Philsicks or CRís visions of society.

In fact capitalism rewards the opposite - the tendency once again seems to be in the direction of fascism, as happened before when it all collapsed - only this time with an ecological disaster thrown into the mix.
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  #45  
Old 26-11-2021, 12:27 PM
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But capitalism does not reward this, so this is no less a fantasy than Philsicks or CRís visions of society.

In fact capitalism rewards the opposite - the tendency once again seems to be in the direction of fascism, as happened before when it all collapsed - only this time with an ecological disaster thrown into the mix.

Far too shrill the world has been dealing (or not dependant on case) with environmental issues and degradation for decades...remember acid rain in the 80's and CFCs causing the ozone hole in Antartica... it took time but many nations came together to develop policies to deal with these issues.
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  #46  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:03 PM
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Thatís not where the profit ultimately comes from. Once ideas are put in to practice it comes from the effort of the workers.
I didnít think it would come from anyone except the sons of the soil in CR World!
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  #47  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:15 PM
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  #48  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
We need to eliminate poverty, stop fixating on eliminating all the rich. Equality of opportunity and rights is where we need to get to first of.
We could end poverty tomorrow, we produce more than enough food to. But the capitalist market sees no value in giving food to people who cannot pay for it.

I am not sure there is any system in which we could guarantee equality of opportunity. But I can say with certainty it is impossible under capitalism. There might well be someone out there who could have come up with a completely different and better version of Amazon, but unfortunately their parents didn't have a spare £300k down the back of the sofa.

To answer the original question - well, it depends what you mean by 'work'. You have to define what outcome you want before you can say whether anything works. This is one of the main problems in this debate, that what constitutes 'working' is never discussed, but it is (implicitly at least) where I think a lot of the disagreement lies.
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  #49  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:40 PM
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I didnít think it would come from anyone except the sons of the soil in CR World!
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  #50  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:43 PM
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We could end poverty tomorrow, we produce more than enough food to. But the capitalist market sees no value in giving food to people who cannot pay for it.

I am not sure there is any system in which we could guarantee equality of opportunity. But I can say with certainty it is impossible under capitalism. There might well be someone out there who could have come up with a completely different and better version of Amazon, but unfortunately their parents didn't have a spare £300k down the back of the sofa.

To answer the original question - well, it depends what you mean by 'work'. You have to define what outcome you want before you can say whether anything works. This is one of the main problems in this debate, that what constitutes 'working' is never discussed, but it is (implicitly at least) where I think a lot of the disagreement lies.
I'm not sure what equality of opportunity even means. If you are blessed with a certain talent does that mean you should get more than others? If people face barriers through special educational needs or disabilities then should they get less?

Surely we should aim to get everyone out of poverty and allocate on the basis of need as best we can. Equality of opportunity is a farce, and as you say especially under a system like capitalism.
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  #51  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:49 PM
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This is all predicated on the view that IP should have no value because the effort of copying something is minimal. Once you have thought it it is essentially dead easy for someone else to copy.

I’ve yet to be given any coherent argument to why that additional surplus value should just go to the workers rather than the guy who had the idea.
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  #52  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:49 PM
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Thank you. It bears absolutely no relevance to modern business (nor, given its age, is there any reason why it should).
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  #53  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:52 PM
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Capitalism v Socialism. The extremities of both are very similar. Exploitation of the working masses (not paying their true worth). Elitist Governance.
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  #54  
Old 26-11-2021, 01:58 PM
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Thatís not where the profit ultimately comes from. Once ideas are put in to practice it comes from the effort of the workers.
Perhaps, but without incentives who will take the risks required to put ideas into practice, not to mention the continued funding of the business ?
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  #55  
Old 26-11-2021, 02:03 PM
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There is no perhaps about it. No idea means no business means no work.
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  #56  
Old 26-11-2021, 02:13 PM
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I'm not sure what equality of opportunity even means. If you are blessed with a certain talent does that mean you should get more than others? If people face barriers through special educational needs or disabilities then should they get less?
Yes, to an extent, that talent should be nurtured and developed pretty much regardless of your economic or social position - Especially talents in the arts etc. Same way that someone who's more unfortunate in health deserves additional medical priority and focus.

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Surely we should aim to get everyone out of poverty and allocate on the basis of need as best we can. Equality of opportunity is a farce, and as you say especially under a system like capitalism.
Capitalism could work in many different ways, if its forced to do so. The problem is that government and capitalism are the same thing. Look at the 'political ruling elite' and they're all effectively well represented in the upper echelons of capitalism, where they're offered lucrative positions of ease after they leave politics (and in many cases whilst they're involved).

Engles makes an interesting observation in, I think, 'The Condition of the Working Class' in England, that the middle classes and upper classes tended to live in areas distant from the working class and poor and avoid routes that took them through those areas when travelling anywhere. The reality of their experience was to 'divest themselves of evidence of their suffering' - It made living in comfort and luxury easy as the suffering caused by poverty was in a different world.

Something of that can be said of the modern age, especially in relation to globablisation, where the worst of the problems inherent in capitalism are hidden away overseas and we can rationalise this in numerous different ways as being 'Ok', even where its things we would never accept in the UK.
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  #57  
Old 26-11-2021, 02:16 PM
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I'm not sure what equality of opportunity even means.
Equality of opportunity is mainly about raising educational standards to a universal level for all, minimising outside barriers to learning such as homelessness and poor diet, and ending bias and discrimination.

It is possible to take practical sequential steps to acheive this. I would argue for example that Finland is some way down this path already and the benefits for all of society are plain to see.

Your utopia is impossible to implement from where we are without brutal force.

First you have to have a highly educated, involved and conscious populous. Once there people's stake and investment in society has value and if homelessness and food poverty are not an issue for anyone value and values can change.

Redistribution of wealth through taxation is not hard. Havinv a society free from crime and poverty benefits everyone. In time Universal Basic Income will become an accepted norm.

When I floated the concept on here 15+ years ago people thought I had two heads, now it is seen as an exciting possible development.
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Old 26-11-2021, 02:22 PM
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There is no perhaps about it. No idea means no business means no work.
Whilst I do kind of agree, ideas aren't all that valuable. The real money in capitalism is taking other peoples ideas and making them cheaper, more efficient or simply more desirable. Innovation is often very expensive, high risk and whilst the rewards can be good, they'll usually be hampered by having to sell large percentages of your business to financiers.

Dr. Norikazu Sawazaki invented the video recorder, but Sony, Phillips and Toshiba made the money.

Heaven forbid you have a great idea at work, and take it on as a project....
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  #59  
Old 26-11-2021, 02:24 PM
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When I floated the concept on here 15+ years ago people thought I had two heads, now it is seen as an exciting possible development.
Not by anyone that has a say.
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  #60  
Old 26-11-2021, 02:25 PM
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Whilst I do kind of agree, ideas aren't all that valuable. The real money in capitalism is taking other peoples ideas and making them cheaper, more efficient or simply more desirable. Innovation is often very expensive, high risk and whilst the rewards can be good, they'll usually be hampered by having to sell large percentages of your business to financiers.

Dr. Norikazu Sawazaki invented the video recorder, but Sony, Phillips and Toshiba made the money.

Heaven forbid you have a great idea at work, and take it on as a project....
In Germany, by law, an employee who has an idea that a company chooses to protected by law, gets part of that reward.

Engels thought that employees would end up getting paid enough to survive and no more. I work for a company that employs lots of engineers who have lots of great ideas. We pay them a lot of money for those ideas, far far more than it costs them to survive.
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