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  #181  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
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The above gives examples on the continent when unions have fought for (and won) a five day week. I donít know what the history is in the U.K., does anyone else?

But I imagine the arguments against the 35 hour week would be similar to those against a 28 hour week.

Iíll come back to again surely with all the massive technological advances we should be working less? It now takes a fraction of the time to do many things than it did a couple of decade or two ago. Yet the working week has gone up in the last decade.
I have skimmed the article it does mention two things that were historically important, neither of which exist currently in the UK. Strong unions and a strong economy with (in real terms not the government made up numbers) low unemployment.
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  #182  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
In my industry people are crying out for more hours, I have men begging me every week to get them in at the weekends.
working for a living and getting paid well for it is something the left wing find abhorrent, they want people to have something for nothing at the expense of those who dont mind a bit of graft. A hard days work for most of them is spending time on the internet complaining about people like you Al
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  #183  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tsunamiman View Post
As other have said. All of this already exists. My contract says number of hours and have the flexibility to compress them. Whether it be 9 in 10 or a 4 day week.

The argument is that a lot of people would get the same amount of work done in a 28/30/32 hour week as they do in their 35/37.5/40 hour week. So enforce the extra day if it has little benefit.

Again, I know its not true for all industries.
Technically I suspect I could do my job in about 2.5 to 3 days a week. I don't because I would be penalised for being very good at what I do (or maybe everyone else is lying about how long it takes them) - so I stretch it out over five days.

In truth, the system rewards those who 'own the means of production' still for efficency, but not workers who achieve efficency (Promotion is rarely based on ability, renumeration certainly isn't and a gift voucher or a thank you isn't really a reward).

Employers and investors expect an ecconomic incentive and return. Their employees generally get a pat on the back, and maybe a gift voucher or another star on their badge.
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  #184  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
working for a living and getting paid well for it is something the left wing find abhorrent, they want people to have something for nothing at the expense of those who dont mind a bit of graft. A hard days work for most of them is spending time on the internet complaining about people like you Al
This is just a student type way of debating.

Most people work hard and the U.K. has one of longest working weeks in the U.K.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting more leisure time and wanting more time with their loved ones. Personally I find it a bit disturbing that people wouldnít want that but each to their own.
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  #185  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
This is just a student type way of debating.

Most people work hard and the U.K. has one of longest working weeks in the U.K.
.
FWIW I believe this!
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  #186  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
working for a living and getting paid well for it is something the left wing find abhorrent, they want people to have something for nothing at the expense of those who dont mind a bit of graft. A hard days work for most of them is spending time on the internet complaining about people like you Al
People who work, should be rewarded for it. People who work unsocialable hours, should be rewarded additionally for it. Its got nothing to do with graft or hard work.

Hardwork is rarely rewarded with anything other than more work - It should be rewarded with either less work or more money. Because thats really how economic incentive works.

If you want your staff to achieve goals, give them things like real profit share, flexitime, four day weeks, proper overtime etc rather than rewarding yourself as the owner, share it with them.
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  #187  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
working for a living and getting paid well for it is something the left wing find abhorrent, they want people to have something for nothing at the expense of those who dont mind a bit of graft. A hard days work for most of them is spending time on the internet complaining about people like you Al

I think thereís a middle ground, where you get decent working conditions, a good standard of pay, and a safe environment and you can still work hard.
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  #188  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Of course, its pretty standard on big construction jobs, I could choose not to do those hours, but I work away from home, so would rather be earning than spending.
I'm kind of in this situation, admitedly not construction, where I tend to work away from home. I also do tend to find that whilst I often give up time at home and sometimes weekends - I do get paid quite well as a result, and often have periods of time between contracts as a time off (its not unusual for me to have a month to six weeks off between jobs). I definately like the job, and what I do, I've learned to make the most of weekends, when I have them (currently all weekends but it used to be every other) and evenings on my todd away from everyone I know.

But I wouldn't do it if the money wasn't good.
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  #189  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
I think thereís a middle ground, where you get decent working conditions, a good standard of pay, and a safe environment and you can still work hard.
We shouldn't be 'working hard' in most cases, we should be enouraged and motivated to 'work smart'. I have regularly worked with people who work 12 hour days, and achieve less than I do in six.

My first ever job, that was hard work. I moved 25kg bags of hops and barley from one end of a room, to another, for 7 hours a day. Nothing else has ever come close to that.

I've noticed as well in some cases a culture where its expected to do the 12, where people are singled out, not because they're failing or not delivering, but because other people are working 'longer' to achieve the same result.
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  #190  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:46 AM
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I think this thread shows very well that everyone's experience of work is different.



Which is why to legislate a universal 'how it should all be' is pretty daft.



This is actually one of the main reasons we have unions : to help create the very best working conditions for their specific industry.
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  #191  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I think this thread shows very well that everyone's experience of work is different.

Which is why to legislate a universal 'how it should all be' is pretty daft.

This is actually one of the main reasons we have unions : to help create the very best working conditions for their specific industry.
The anti union laws and the resulting weak unions means that what unions can do is often very limited.

But given we did move to a general culture of a five day week (for most), then canít see why that canít be done to a four day week given the astounding technological advances in the past few decades.
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  #192  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
This is just a student type way of debating.

Most people work hard and the U.K. has one of longest working weeks in the U.K.

There is nothing wrong with people wanting more leisure time and wanting more time with their loved ones. Personally I find it a bit disturbing that people wouldn’t want that but each to their own.
I am not debating , im simply telling you the truth . You have a real problem with people choosing to work hard and getting rewarded for it . You also advocate people working less studiously for the same money and expect others to cover the cost . The something for nothing culture in a nutshell.
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  #193  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
.
But given we did move to a general culture of a five day week (for most), then canít see why that canít be done to a four day week given the astounding technological advances in the past few decades.
I donít think it is a major issue that the country is crying out to be resolved. Rather like leaving the EU, which only became a major issue when the Conservatives decided that it should be.
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  #194  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I think this thread shows very well that everyone's experience of work is different.



Which is why to legislate a universal 'how it should all be' is pretty daft.



This is actually one of the main reasons we have unions : to help create the very best working conditions for their specific industry.
From the same people who want to ban zero hours contracts, despite them working for some people and in some industries.
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  #195  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
From the same people who want to ban zero hours contracts, despite them working for some people and in some industries.
the key issue of zero hour contracts should be if they work for employes. They generally don't, but they really do work as a means for employers to maximise profit.
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  #196  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
I am not debating , im simply telling you the truth . You have a real problem with people choosing to work hard and getting rewarded for it . You also advocate people working less studiously for the same money and expect others to cover the cost . The something for nothing culture in a nutshell.
Most people who work hard, aren't rewarded for it. People who work above and beyond the expectation, should be rewarded (though we should also place limits to prevent their exploitation as well).

And not with a little plaque and bottle of cheap sparkling wine, once.
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  #197  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
I am not debating , im simply telling you the truth . You have a real problem with people choosing to work hard and getting rewarded for it . You also advocate people working less studiously for the same money and expect others to cover the cost . The something for nothing culture in a nutshell.
Where have I said I have a problem with people working hard? I’ve always tried to work hard, starting as an apprentice and doing manual and non manual jobs. Manual jobs being far more difficult.

We live in a collective society, and yes I think less should go to profits and more to wages. Less now go to wages than at any time since WW2.

But why would we want a society where technological advances don’t lead to more leisure time? Where people work long hours not seeing their loved ones? Is that something we should say is a good thing?

Little Al seems to almost revel in doing loads of hours and not being able to see his family. I appreciate he is happy with that, but most would find it depressing.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 10-09-2019 at 09:56 AM.
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  #198  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I don’t think it is a major issue that the country is crying out to be resolved. Rather like leaving the EU, which only became a major issue when the Conservatives decided that it should be.
75% of people want a four day work.

Most workers complain of stress at work, and not seeing their loved ones enough.

Personally I think it’s a huge issue.
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  #199  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
75% of people want a four day work.
.
???
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Most workers complain of stress at work, and not seeing their loved ones enough.

???


There's no sources for this are there?
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  #200  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Most people who work hard, aren't rewarded for it. People who work above and beyond the expectation, should be rewarded (though we should also place limits to prevent their exploitation as well).

And not with a little plaque and bottle of cheap sparkling wine, once.
Funnily enough it is a strong union presence that stops me doing exactly what you are asking for.
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