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  #241  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Well, I canít speak for what might happen in a hundred years, but I do know we live in a global economy now and the U.K. is a considerably better place to work than most. Your measures, if imposed on businesses that have to be competitive, would result in loss of that competitiveness and orders simply going elsewhere.

Maybe we have reached the peak? We probably reached the peak in this generation when many people could retire before/at 60.

Forgive me but it sounds like you really hate what you do. Iíd look at that and what you can personally change to improve that situation (be it moving, retraining etc). Donít wait in hope that govt or society will somehow change your circumstances.
So despite huge increases in wealth and GDP, you think humanity has reached its peak? Despite all the massive technological advances in the last 20 years that would be far more than probably the last 2000 in terms of their scope?

I actually enjoy my job, but not as much as I like my leisure time and spending time with loved ones.

But itís not about me. A lot of people do very draining jobs which often they donít enjoy. I find it depressing that you think everything now is the pinnacle of where humanity can get to.
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  #242  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:37 PM
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Don’t think he said that mate…
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  #243  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Donít think he said that mateÖ
I probably did generalise but he did seem to be saying we had reached a peak of both lower retirement ages and working hours/days.
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  #244  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:39 PM
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We may well have for the foreseeable future or we may not have. There are arguments either way.
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  #245  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So despite huge increases in wealth and GDP, you think humanity has reached its peak? Despite all the massive technological advances in the last 20 years that would be far more than probably the last 2000 in terms of their scope?

I actually enjoy my job, but not as much as I like my leisure time and spending time with loved ones.

But itís not about me. A lot of people do very draining jobs which often they donít enjoy. I find it depressing that you think everything now is the pinnacle of where humanity can get to.
OK, white flag from me.

You keep misunderstanding me, what 4-day working week means and putting words in my mouth that do not reflect what Iíve written at all.
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  #246  
Old 11-09-2019, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
The graph shows, in 18 years, a 0.8 change for men and a 0.1 change for women. That’s an average of about 5-50 mins difference across a week.

Not sure what the hand wringing by some on this thread is about?
It is half an hour a week since 2009, 26 hours or three days of work in a year. I think that is quite a bit, especially considering the advances in technology in so many industries.

Last edited by chelmsfordeagle; 11-09-2019 at 06:28 AM.
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  #247  
Old 11-09-2019, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Well, I can’t speak for what might happen in a hundred years, but I do know we live in a global economy now and the U.K. is a considerably better place to work than most. Your measures, if imposed on businesses that have to be competitive, would result in loss of that competitiveness and orders simply going elsewhere.

Maybe we have reached the peak? We probably reached the peak in this generation when many people could retire before/at 60.

Forgive me but it sounds like you really hate what you do. I’d look at that and what you can personally change to improve that situation (be it moving, retraining etc). Don’t wait in hope that govt or society will somehow change your circumstances.
Would it? Plenty of countries have a shorter working week and manage to be competitive and in some cases more productive. Is the goal to squeeze the absolute most out of people? Because the UK is a good place to work does that mean things should not be improved?

Last edited by chelmsfordeagle; 11-09-2019 at 06:24 AM.
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  #248  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
Is the goal to squeeze the absolute most out of people?
Goals will change according to business type, industry, management and owners.

One of the fundamental errors underlying this whole thread is to view all employers (and possibly employees) as being the same.
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  #249  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
Would it? Plenty of countries have a shorter working week and manage to be competitive and in some cases more productive. Is the goal to squeeze the absolute most out of people? Because the UK is a good place to work does that mean things should not be improved?
They are still reassessing the UK productivity. We’ve been overcounting working hours.
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  #250  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:02 AM
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Regardless how many hours we have been working now or 10 years ago fundamentally, is a human being realising it’s potential spending the majority of their life working, sacrificing time spent on other activities? Readdressing a balance to work/life is an important question.
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  #251  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MFBias View Post
Regardless how many hours we have been working now or 10 years ago fundamentally, is a human being realising itís potential spending the majority of their life working, sacrificing time spent on other activities? Readdressing a balance to work/life is an important question.
You mean working less allows for more time realising your potential on the BBS?


I would suggest that 99.5% of the global population do not realise their potential, working or not.
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  #252  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Goals will change according to business type, industry, management and owners.

One of the fundamental errors underlying this whole thread is to view all employers (and possibly employees) as being the same.
I wouldn't say it is an error, just that we are talking in general terms, which is natural. You have been negative to this idea, probably because you feel you would be financial hit by it. Equally I like it because I wouldn't be. That is human nature. Of course there would need to be adjustments and variation, just as there is now, where most people work a 5 day working week. I don't that everyone being viewed the same is a reason not to change to a 4 day working week as a standard.
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  #253  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chelmsfordeagle View Post
I wouldn't say it is an error, just that we are talking in general terms, which is natural. You have been negative to this idea, probably because you feel you would be financial hit by it. .
That's a fairly facile thing to say. I vote for many things that might financially hit me : ao I guess I might be contradicting your vast generalisation (another) that people are always and universally motivated by self-interest.


But I probably wouldn't be hit by it ; but due to higher employment costs I might well employ less people, and provide fewer job opportunities.
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  #254  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So despite huge increases in wealth and GDP, you think humanity has reached its peak? Despite all the massive technological advances in the last 20 years that would be far more than probably the last 2000 in terms of their scope?

I actually enjoy my job, but not as much as I like my leisure time and spending time with loved ones.

But itís not about me. A lot of people do very draining jobs which often they donít enjoy. I find it depressing that you think everything now is the pinnacle of where humanity can get to.
Though we do need to start setting a precident that technology should not be utilised to render people 'poorer', but society as a whole richer. There are a few theoretical technologies coming down the line that could effectively be 'game changers' on a scale with industrialisation (AI, Genetic Engineering and 'Nanotechnologies').

If we approch these in the same way we did with industrialistation and automation, as a means of maximising profit, but not dealing with the reduction in work force, we'll face significant social turmoil.

The end result of such technologies should be to create a more leisured society, otherwise we tend to blunder into periods of massive social unrest caused by great disparity being unregulated.

Its vital we avoid doing to the working classes of the UK (and world) what has happened in the past with Automation, Off Shoring, Industrialisation etc.
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  #255  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:05 AM
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Its vital we avoid doing to the working classes of the UK (and world) what has happened in the past with Automation, Off Shoring, Industrialisation etc.
I don't disagree.


But the cynic in me thinks this is an ideal that will never be realised. All of human history would largely agree with me.
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  #256  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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That's a fairly facile thing to say. I vote for many things that might financially hit me : ao I guess I might be contradicting your vast generalisation (another) that people are always and universally motivated by self-interest.


But I probably wouldn't be hit by it ; but due to higher employment costs I might well employ less people, and provide fewer job opportunities.
This is an often used maxim, but its untrue, people are not motivated by self interest, but often choose self interest. Usually self interest prevails, because the clarity of reward vs risk is very evident.

However self interest decisions also include decisions typically made in the interest of group interest, rather than individuals themselves. for example, I won't make an decision that purely is in my interest, if it doesn't reflect the interest of those close to me (esp if its detrimental to them). This is probably the single biggest motivator in people - and of course it gets defined as self interest, because of the 'no action is truely alutristic' arguement (ie I choose a decision thats in my wifes interest, because fundamentally it benefits me to some degree).

Hence the problem of the self interest arguement, its a self fulfilling on, because its based in biological reductionalism (alturism), which is fine when you're talking about a species, but unreliable when talking about decisions made by individuals.
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  #257  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:13 AM
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They will look after themselves and their family first then worry about others.
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  #258  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:15 AM
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I don't disagree.


But the cynic in me thinks this is an ideal that will never be realised. All of human history would largely agree with me.
I'm not sure all of history reflects this, notably pre-capitalist society concepts of profit and wealth in its own right was not as desirable as a singular moral and ethical justification (quite possibly down to the fact that there was a significant limit on what wealth could provide to an individual) - and the notion of collective greater self interest generally prevailed.

But since industrialisation thats definately been the case, as wealth and profit have become 'moral and ethical' justifications on an increasing basis, especially moving into the 20th centuary.

The good news will be that some of these technologies present a significant risk to the notion of scarcity (nanotechnology) and fundementally offer a means by which value would be rendered meaningless.
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  #259  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:33 AM
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Pre-capitalist models relied on serfs and slaves. Wealth and power were no less desirable.
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  #260  
Old 11-09-2019, 10:13 AM
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The good news will be that some of these technologies present a significant risk to the notion of scarcity (nanotechnology) and fundementally offer a means by which value would be rendered meaningless.
as will the necessity for work.
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