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  #161  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sodermalm View Post
That's your choice
Of course, its pretty standard on big construction jobs, I could choose not to do those hours, but I work away from home, so would rather be earning than spending.
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  #162  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
He said once a month.

It seems a really bleak situation.
Its not really, its just a way of life, its not for everyone for sure. I love it.
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  #163  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Thatís what happens with work that has no weak unions, combined with Tory anti union laws.

You end up working long hours and have loads of quality family and social time taken away. Itís grim.

Dunno about whinging but itís better to stand up to that than be a doormat. There are also lots of people, for very good reasons, that canít do that amount of hours.

The tories really love a doornat worker who says donít whinge and just put up with it.
Unite cover us.
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  #164  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
There is confused thinking in this thread with some posters linking 2 different working practices together.

Doing a shift pattern that involves condensing your hours to 4 days means that you ARE working the full 40 hour week or more (eg it might be 10-12 hours per day, 4 days). This matches the working needs of the company and can often be more effective for both the company and the employee.

Others are extolling a 4-day week, ie working 4x 8 hours per day. This would therefore mean reducing working hours by 20%, but not salary. It is this that many of us are saying is not affordable.
It is affordable there is loads of money in profits and indeed they have gone up.
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  #165  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Firstly I just donít accept that people choose to have low wages, long hours and long commutes. It would be a fairly bizarre choice if they could do the opposite of all that.

But even with little al itís tragic. Humanity is about bonds with family and friends. To spend so little time with loved ones is no life really.
Dont be sad for me, I love my work, time at home is more special too, plus the money is excellent. I also fly her down quite often.
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  #166  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Unite cover us.
They do but are very weak in that sector, compounded by anti union laws.

So you are left with very long hours, with little time to see your family. You might love that but the vast majority wouldnít. Most want a lot of leisure time and as much time as possible to socialise and spend time with their family and society should make that possible.
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  #167  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Well no because the government could help small businesses.

As said above surly this canít be the pinnacle of human development and leisure time?
Where will they get the money from, what with pay being reduced by 20% therefore less tax being paid?
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  #168  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
There is confused thinking in this thread with some posters linking 2 different working practices together.

Doing a shift pattern that involves condensing your hours to 4 days means that you ARE working the full 40 hour week or more (eg it might be 10-12 hours per day, 4 days). This matches the working needs of the company and can often be more effective for both the company and the employee.

Others are extolling a 4-day week, ie working 4x 8 hours per day. This would therefore mean reducing working hours by 20%, but not salary. It is this that many of us are saying is not affordable.
It is affordable if production remains the same. Actually increases profits in this instance as other fixed costs go down and retention goes up so you lose less in recruitment costs.
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  #169  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
You've hit the nail on the thumb again. That's contracting, what would be the point of more down time away from home.

Of course at some point the contract will end and he has the choice of when he take the next contract job.
Exactly, the last job was 3 years on the Aberdeen bypass, the yard was 5 mins from home.
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  #170  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
They do but are very weak in that sector, compounded by anti union laws.

So you are left with very long hours, with little time to see your family. You might love that but the vast majority wouldnít. Most want a lot of leisure time and as much time as possible to socialise and spend time with their family and society should make that possible.
Are they weak? I wouldn't know I am not a member, I hate unions.

Again, I choose to work weekends, its not forced.
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  #171  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I donít recall the use of these arguments. Can you point me in the direction of a link, not least so we can agree the time you are talking about.
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The above gives examples on the continent when unions have fought for (and won) a five day week. I donít know what the history is in the U.K., does anyone else?

But I imagine the arguments against the 35 hour week would be similar to those against a 28 hour week.

Iíll come back to again surely with all the massive technological advances we should be working less? It now takes a fraction of the time to do many things than it did a couple of decade or two ago. Yet the working week has gone up in the last decade.
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  #172  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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Realistically, I suspect the reality of a 4 day working week is going to be that

1) its optional
2) its unpaid or subsidised.

Unless we look at recovering costs elsewhere (such as eliminating bank holidays and other forms of cost to contribute towards funding it, reduction of paid holiday etc).

Those who have to work the five days, should recieve one days annual leave a week.

Or it could be more viable to companies to make it on hours worked, rather than days (as thats more viable), rather than maybe a five day week to a four day week, a 40 hour week over 7 days might be preferable.
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  #173  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Are they weak? I wouldn't know I am not a member, I hate unions.

Again, I choose to work weekends, its not forced.
Yes. In the private sector as a whole unions have about 7% density. Which is why so many workers are screwed over and on very low wages.

You choose but many have no choice over long hours. Again most people want more leisure time, short hours and more time with their family. Society should be built around that, not someone like yourself who would be very unusual. Not many want very long and unsociable hours, low amounts of leisure time and low amounts of time to spend with family.
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  #174  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
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The above gives examples on the continent when unions have fought for (and won) a five day week. I donít know what the history is in the U.K., does anyone else?

But I imagine the arguments against the 35 hour week would be similar to those against a 28 hour week.

Iíll come back to again surely with all the massive technological advances we should be working less? It now takes a fraction of the time to do many things than it did a couple of decade or two ago. Yet the working week has gone up in the last decade.
Those advances shouldn't be making us poorer through unemployment either - the problem has always been that Capitalism and profit are seen as the philosophoical basis of our society, rather than contributing to it. As such, shareholders tend to get richer from automation, workers tend to get poorer and govenment does nothing to regulate to balance that inequality.
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  #175  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Yes. In the private sector as a whole unions have about 7% density. Which is why so many workers are screwed over and on very low wages.

You choose but many have no choice over long hours. Again most people want more leisure time, short hours and more time with their family. Society should be built around that, not someone like yourself who would be very unusual. Not many want very long and unsociable hours, low amounts of leisure time and low amounts of time to spend with family.
In my industry people are crying out for more hours, I have men begging me every week to get them in at the weekends.
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  #176  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Realistically, I suspect the reality of a 4 day working week is going to be that

1) its optional
2) its unpaid or subsidised.

Unless we look at recovering costs elsewhere (such as eliminating bank holidays and other forms of cost to contribute towards funding it, reduction of paid holiday etc).

Those who have to work the five days, should recieve one days annual leave a week.

Or it could be more viable to companies to make it on hours worked, rather than days (as thats more viable), rather than maybe a five day week to a four day week, a 40 hour week over 7 days might be preferable.
As other have said. All of this already exists. My contract says number of hours and have the flexibility to compress them. Whether it be 9 in 10 or a 4 day week.

The argument is that a lot of people would get the same amount of work done in a 28/30/32 hour week as they do in their 35/37.5/40 hour week. So enforce the extra day if it has little benefit.

Again, I know its not true for all industries.
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  #177  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
In my industry people are crying out for more hours, I have men begging me every week to get them in at the weekends.
Yes for the money.

But again the vast majority, if they could afford it, would want more leisure time and more time with their loved ones. Most would find spending very long hours away from their loved ones painful and tragic. I accept you donít but thatís very unusual in my view.
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  #178  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Are they weak? I wouldn't know I am not a member, I hate unions.

Again, I choose to work weekends, its not forced.
Its likely encouraged to the point of necessity. I'm self employed, and I know for a fact if I don't sign the opt out clause on 40 hour weeks I won't get the work.

Now I don't mind, but I also accept that fundamentally this is wrong, because other people aren't in the same position I am (I get well paid in return as a contractor). That said, in the area of contracting, people could still benefit from unionisation, primarily to take on HMRC's somewhat predatory approch...

For example, i know cleaners on minimum wage who's contracts technically render them self employed, and they are being completely f**ked over by their employers with no recourse.
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  #179  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:56 AM
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I donít recall the use of these arguments. Can you point me in the direction of a link, not least so we can agree the time you are talking about.
The arguments previously used against reducing the working week in the mid-late 1800s were production will fall, it will cost too much money to businesses, people will have to take a paycut, some industries will not be able to adapt (Particularly the cotton industry). All of these reasons have been used on this thread, as examples of why a 4 days working week wouldn't work. Not related to today but there was in the 1870s a belief that reducing the working week would lead to idleness and temptation, and to alcohol and sin which was a key reason football was pushed as a pursuit of the lower classes. It filled the Saturday afternoon void. I don't have links to this as it was something I read about on previous studies, which of course leaves me far more open to you not believing me. What I would say is do you really think that business and industry in 1800s Britain voluntarily reduced the working week? As with all big improvements in society; child labour, women's rights, emancipation, healthcare it has to be hard fought.
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  #180  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Are they weak? I wouldn't know I am not a member, I hate unions.



Again, I choose to work weekends, its not forced.

Why do you hate unions?
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