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  #101  
Old 26-05-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Selhurst Celtic View Post
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People complaining about this 'sex education' in primary schools. What do they believe the lessons involve? I mean, I presume they know the details to be passing judgement.
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  #102  
Old 26-05-2019, 11:18 AM
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  #103  
Old 26-05-2019, 12:07 PM
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  #104  
Old 26-05-2019, 02:37 PM
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As most of the protest seems to be.from religious groups, then I am certain that a secular state has an obligation to ensure that LGBT+ issues are taught in schools as clearly religious groups aren't doing this.

It's the reality of the world that LGBT+ people exist and have a right to exist as citizens of the state. That includes the necessity of demonstrating to minority groups of citizens that the state has their back against groups who would promote and support their exclusion.

It also means the state has a role in teaching kids from parents in those groups, a number of whom will be LBGT+ that there s nothing wrong with who they are and providing those kids with the support they need.

Allowing kids to only have one side of the argument will just promote suffering for a minority with no good reason.

It's not about what parents feel or want, but how we as society include all citizens. Imagine growing up trans and having parents who hold these views. Only the state can then provide succor to those kids
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  #105  
Old 26-05-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
They are primary school children, they shouldn't be learning about sex at all. Let them be kids ffs.
Which is why they're learning about gender. Sex and gender are two very different things
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  #106  
Old 26-05-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TennesseeKing View Post
Are the views of those who believe climate change is a myth compatible with a forward thinking western society? Probably not. But what can you do?
Rightly they get ignored because the balance of facts aren't on their side. Even among those scientists who are in the denier camp, almost all accept that climate change is a real thing their argument tends to be on how much is human contribution
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  #107  
Old 26-05-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by in-exile View Post
Whatever... You cannot change them to your happy world ... They don't agree with your view and what you going to do about it ..?
Ban protests ..... Go and live in China!
They can protest all they like as long as it's not around schools where they are interfering with education. They're are all kinds of laws that govern where and how you can protest

For free speech to have value all sides need to be informed. These protests prevent that
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  #108  
Old 26-05-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
Rightly they get ignored because the balance of facts aren't on their side. Even among those scientists who are in the denier camp, almost all accept that climate change is a real thing their argument tends to be on how much is human contribution
Ignored? We are doing **** all.
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  #109  
Old 26-05-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
This is wrong. If religions say (in effect) 'LGBT people are sinful and must be punished' then the problem is the religions. We can take comfort in the fact that most adherents don't follow it to the letter, we can welcome modern interpretations that turn a blind eye, we can bemoan when hardliners do display intolerance, but we can't put the blame solely on prejudiced followers and give the religions themselves a free pass. It's the religions which create and justify the intolerance that the hardliners are following.
Seems to be a point we are happy to ignore, particularly as Islam through the Koran is actually pretty clear in its teachings.

Islam is probably a more progressive religion than Christianity but there are so many old folk sayings and contradictory facts in the Bible that you can more easily make a wishy washy interpretation.

The old testament in particular though has some fairly horrendous parts to it by modern standards.
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  #110  
Old 26-05-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
As most of the protest seems to be.from religious groups, then I am certain that a secular state has an obligation to ensure that LGBT+ issues are taught in schools as clearly religious groups aren't doing this.

It's the reality of the world that LGBT+ people exist and have a right to exist as citizens of the state. That includes the necessity of demonstrating to minority groups of citizens that the state has their back against groups who would promote and support their exclusion.

It also means the state has a role in teaching kids from parents in those groups, a number of whom will be LBGT+ that there s nothing wrong with who they are and providing those kids with the support they need.

Allowing kids to only have one side of the argument will just promote suffering for a minority with no good reason.

It's not about what parents feel or want, but how we as society include all citizens. Imagine growing up trans and having parents who hold these views. Only the state can then provide succor to those kids
One day we will realise there is no such things as gay or straight or transgender but understand that there is a spectrum of sexuality and some people are more at one end than another and some people move up and down that spectrum more than others.
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  #111  
Old 26-05-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
One day we will realise there is no such things as gay or straight or transgender but understand that there is a spectrum of sexuality and some people are more at one end than another and some people move up and down that spectrum more than others.
All part of God/Allah’s wonderous plans.
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  #112  
Old 26-05-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
One day we will realise there is no such things as gay or straight or transgender but understand that there is a spectrum of sexuality and some people are more at one end than another and some people move up and down that spectrum more than others.
That debate has been going for several thousand years (since the Egyptians, if not before).

I doubt if any enlightenment will happen as you describe unless science can prove it.
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  #113  
Old 26-05-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
One day we will realise there is no such things as gay or straight or transgender but understand that there is a spectrum of sexuality and some people are more at one end than another and some people move up and down that spectrum more than others.
Pretty much as i see it. But what determines where u are on that spectrum? Hormones? Parental influences? Genes? School influences? And does it in fact matter!
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  #114  
Old 26-05-2019, 07:06 PM
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Pretty much as i see it. But what determines where u are on that spectrum? Hormones? Parental influences? Genes? School influences? And does it in fact matter!

Genetics, culture/environment and opportunity
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  #115  
Old 26-05-2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by macstar View Post
And does it in fact matter!
To a certain amount of straight people who bully, abuse, attack, rape LGBTQ people, clearly it does matter. They’re the problem here. I imagine most LGBTQ people wish it didn’t matter, so they could live their lives without fear of these things happening.

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  #116  
Old 26-05-2019, 08:53 PM
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I get where you are coming from but I stand by my assertion that it is not religion that is to blame but how it used to endorse and encourage prejudice. I do not believe religious teaching in itself does create, justify or encourage intolerance. People know basic rights from wrongs and can choose what passages from religious teachings they choose to focus on those they do not.

See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. Like a hunted gazelle, like sheep without a shepherd, they will all return to their own people, they will flee to their native land. Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated.


(Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

So many examples here to pick up on, but though not strictly intolerance related, lets deal with how the passage ends.

Do you believe The Bible is encouraging and justifying rape?
I have zero intention of picking apart that bunch of nonsense.
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  #117  
Old 26-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
That debate has been going for several thousand years (since the Egyptians, if not before).

I doubt if any enlightenment will happen as you describe unless science can prove it.
Interesting point.

I am not sure we need science to prove what is self-evident but when you remember that religion used to give us the definitive answers, it is possibly necessary that for bias to be overcome a 'higher authority' has to prove it, and that the spread of social enlightenment can only go so far.

Some religions have been highly intolerant of varied sexuality others more accepting - even providing specific roles for transexuals.

It is transexuals that led my own thinking on sexuality, finding them so similar across vastly different cultures from the West, to Latin America, India and Thailand, I realised or rather it confirmed to me that it was a genetic spectrum thing not in anyway a cultural one.

Spending more time in Thailand where there are so many 'ladyboys' it further led me to wonder why so many in a single country and the conclusion was that it is simply more recognised and the general population are less intolerant of them so much so that they freely exist even in secondary school (not that they don't suffer discrimination entirely).

I also spend time in countries where strict sex separation is practised and others where sexuality of all sorts is highly monitored and looked at the effects of environment and opportunity on the populace's sexual practices.

I grew up when gay bashing was still a thing, and discrimination - official and unofficial - against homosexuals was widespread, so despite an open mind I still had to overcome in built bias.

However people in their late teens early 20s today seem largely open minded and accepting compared to 30 or 40 years ago, I am not sure they have the societal and religious based bias to overcome. Not to say the religious orthodox aren't still trying to impose their ridiculous views...

Anyway you are most likely right, I guess I just prefer a path of societal enlightenment to replacing one higher authority with an another
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  #118  
Old 26-05-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
One day we will realise there is no such things as gay or straight or transgender but understand that there is a spectrum of sexuality and some people are more at one end than another and some people move up and down that spectrum more than others.
All part of lives rich tapestry, everything between consenting adults enriche s life. The more diverse our experience, the richer. Everyone has the right to be who they are, without prejudice.
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  #119  
Old 26-05-2019, 09:42 PM
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However people in their late teens early 20s today seem largely open minded and accepting compared to 30 or 40 years ago, I am not sure they have the societal and religious based bias to overcome.
As a teenager who knows other teenagers, I’d strongly disagree. Perhaps not as bad it used to be, but bigoted attitudes are still fairly common. Mostly against Trans people. I would say societal bias is largely to blame for this, as there’s still a general lack of education and exposure to what trans people actually are, what they face in day to day life etc in our education system and media.

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  #120  
Old 27-05-2019, 12:28 AM
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I have zero intention of picking apart that bunch of nonsense.
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