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General Palace Discussion General Palace talk - please keep transfer talk in the transfer forum.

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  #20121  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WorthingEagle View Post
Maybe he just doesn't care what people on the internet think. You should try that, it's nice. You're seemingly more upset on his and others behalf than they are much of the time.
Well - at least the acknowledgement that most of what's spouted on here is bollocks not to concern oneself with is there I suppose.
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  #20122  
Old 01-02-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog View Post
It depends what you hope to achieve by 'holding people to account'. So long as we learn from it, fine. But pointing the finger is a downward spiral, especially when transfer decisions are made collectively.
A good point, . . which is why I became self-employed.

When good decisions are made collectively, there is much back-slapping and people at the top take the glory.

When decisions are made collectively, and go wrong, you won't find anyone culpable, except the poor sod at the bottom of the ladder. That experience has been wasted, as you've found a scapegoat.
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  #20123  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WorthingEagle View Post
Maybe he just doesn't care what people on the internet think. You should try that, it's nice. You're seemingly more upset on his and others behalf than they are much of the time.
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  #20124  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by WorthingEagle View Post
It's called hyperbole. A sort of Spanish supermarket.
It doesn't do much for your argument
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  #20125  
Old 01-02-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
But it seems regardless of what SP does, he is lambasted (that is my point).

Signs a good pedigree player for big money he is being profligate with the kitty. The fans consensus is we need to be uunearthing gems for little money.

We unearth some possible gems (but it is a punt and the jury is out). What terrible signings. Where is the ambition?

We wait too long in the window and we get our pants pulled down in the transfer market. Awful by Parish.

We pull out of a deal at the 11th hour because we are clearly being taken advantage of. Parish ridiculed for cocking up.

We get a knock down deal at the 11th hour. He is lucky.

**** knows why he bothers.
It's always good when the same people hold all 5 of those positions, often all at the same time
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  #20126  
Old 01-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Hedgehog View Post
It depends what you hope to achieve by 'holding people to account'. So long as we learn from it, fine. But pointing the finger is a downward spiral, especially when transfer decisions are made collectively.
Of course, and the majority of people don't know how transfers work or how transfers are concluded at this club specifically.

Fortunately the scout responsible for identifying Jach, Rakip and Sorloth is not really trusted anymore and I suspect there are probably more checks in place as a result of that dire window.

But that's kind of my point. People should be free to criticise (preferably constructively, but this is football, it's heavily irrational) and there should be accountability.

As a result of what I mentioned in my original point here, people get hysterical in both directions. Either Parish is entirely at fault, Moody is entirely at fault, Parish is shit, Moody is shit, Dougie is shit, or any combination of those, when, in reality, it doesn't work like that (as you also say)

This window was a massive success. We cleared out players who were on the fringes of the team and used the savings from their wages to bring in a striker who potentially and hopefully will make a significant difference. I don't think there was any point in bringing in Sako but it's cover for multiple positions so it's not disastrous, as well as being only for six months.

That's a collective effort. Parish obviously has a role in that as the Chairman, and 'credit' is warranted, but it doesn't excuse prior failings, of which there are many.

The club needs a plan which doesn't involve consistently buying the finished product at £100k+ a week, because otherwise it will be hamstrung as it was in the summer (but again, didn't do too badly with transfers, Meyer and Guaita on bosman free transfers worked out well) and this window. Spending significant money on wages for players like Benteke and Sakho is high risk, because as you see with Benteke, he is not performing and we don't currently appear to be able to shift him unless someone with money to burn comes along.

There have been desperation panic signings in prior windows, but if this and the last window are telling of a new way of operating, then Parish will have been part of that, and the recruitment set-up as a whole do warrant appreciation and credit. But we know that Parish likes to sign players *he* likes, and not necessarily players that we need.
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  #20127  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
But it seems regardless of what SP does, he is lambasted (that is my point).

Signs a good pedigree player for big money he is being profligate with the kitty. The fans consensus is we need to be uunearthing gems for little money.

We unearth some possible gems (but it is a punt and the jury is out). What terrible signings. Where is the ambition?

We wait too long in the window and we get our pants pulled down in the transfer market. Awful by Parish.

We pull out of a deal at the 11th hour because we are clearly being taken advantage of. Parish ridiculed for cocking up.

We get a knock down deal at the 11th hour. He is lucky.

**** knows why he bothers.
Remember when we signed Sakho...some were saying heís a crock with a bad attitude. Then when he had put in some great performances, there was loads of criticism that Parish only had him on loan and should have had a buy out clause...even though that was another 11th hour deal, we were playing a match during the transfer deadline and possibly werenít 100% sure ourselves that Sakho would work out as well as he did.
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  #20128  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosie View Post
Of course, and the majority of people don't know how transfers work or how transfers are concluded at this club specifically.

Fortunately the scout responsible for identifying Jach, Rakip and Sorloth is not really trusted anymore and I suspect there are probably more checks in place as a result of that dire window.

But that's kind of my point. People should be free to criticise (preferably constructively, but this is football, it's heavily irrational) and there should be accountability.

As a result of what I mentioned in my original point here, people get hysterical in both directions. Either Parish is entirely at fault, Moody is entirely at fault, Parish is shit, Moody is shit, Dougie is shit, or any combination of those, when, in reality, it doesn't work like that (as you also say)

This window was a massive success. We cleared out players who were on the fringes of the team and used the savings from their wages to bring in a striker who potentially and hopefully will make a significant difference. I don't think there was any point in bringing in Sako but it's cover for multiple positions so it's not disastrous, as well as being only for six months.

That's a collective effort. Parish obviously has a role in that as the Chairman, and 'credit' is warranted, but it doesn't excuse prior failings, of which there are many.

The club needs a plan which doesn't involve consistently buying the finished product at £100k+ a week, because otherwise it will be hamstrung as it was in the summer (but again, didn't do too badly with transfers, Meyer and Guaita on bosman free transfers worked out well) and this window. Spending significant money on wages for players like Benteke and Sakho is high risk, because as you see with Benteke, he is not performing and we don't currently appear to be able to shift him unless someone with money to burn comes along.

There have been desperation panic signings in prior windows, but if this and the last window are telling of a new way of operating, then Parish will have been part of that, and the recruitment set-up as a whole do warrant appreciation and credit. But we know that Parish likes to sign players *he* likes, and not necessarily players that we need.
Great summary

Out of interest why hasnít that scout been let go?
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  #20129  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SA Eagle View Post
It's always good when the same people hold all 5 of those positions, often all at the same time
TBF he was a bit lucky last night but Goodness knows it's about time. We get more than our fair share of s***.
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  #20130  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosie View Post
Of course, and the majority of people don't know how transfers work or how transfers are concluded at this club specifically.

Fortunately the scout responsible for identifying Jach, Rakip and Sorloth is not really trusted anymore and I suspect there are probably more checks in place as a result of that dire window.

But that's kind of my point. People should be free to criticise (preferably constructively, but this is football, it's heavily irrational) and there should be accountability.

As a result of what I mentioned in my original point here, people get hysterical in both directions. Either Parish is entirely at fault, Moody is entirely at fault, Parish is shit, Moody is shit, Dougie is shit, or any combination of those, when, in reality, it doesn't work like that (as you also say)

This window was a massive success. We cleared out players who were on the fringes of the team and used the savings from their wages to bring in a striker who potentially and hopefully will make a significant difference. I don't think there was any point in bringing in Sako but it's cover for multiple positions so it's not disastrous, as well as being only for six months.

That's a collective effort. Parish obviously has a role in that as the Chairman, and 'credit' is warranted, but it doesn't excuse prior failings, of which there are many.

The club needs a plan which doesn't involve consistently buying the finished product at £100k+ a week, because otherwise it will be hamstrung as it was in the summer (but again, didn't do too badly with transfers, Meyer and Guaita on bosman free transfers worked out well) and this window. Spending significant money on wages for players like Benteke and Sakho is high risk, because as you see with Benteke, he is not performing and we don't currently appear to be able to shift him unless someone with money to burn comes along.

I think this is it. I'd personally like to see us buying the top young stand out players from the championship and establishing them in the premier league with a long term vision and plan at the heart of it all.
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  #20131  
Old 01-02-2019, 06:03 PM
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It’s amazing what Parish has done and is continuing to do with our club. We’re in the big time and we’re not going anywhere for a while. And it’s mainly(not entirely)all down to Steve Parish.
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  #20132  
Old 01-02-2019, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by libran View Post
I think this is it. I'd personally like to see us buying the top young stand out players from the championship and establishing them in the premier league with a long term vision and plan at the heart of it all.
Itís a nice aspiration but can be very expensive. A top Championship prospect would be in the £10-15m bracket probably now, with no guarantee they will step up. We discuss Bournemouth a lot, but look at Tyrone Mings who we were after as well I recall. £8m purchase, badly injured on debut and out for around a year, but even now only 22 games 4 years later and now loaned back to the Championship.

We definitely SHOULD should be looking at this type of player, but equally in a couple of years time you would hope that the upgrade to the Academy will kick in and we will have one or two more Wilf or AWBís emerging.
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  #20133  
Old 01-02-2019, 07:04 PM
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It’s a nice aspiration but can be very expensive. A top Championship prospect would be in the £10-15m bracket probably now, with no guarantee they will step up. We discuss Bournemouth a lot, but look at Tyrone Mings who we were after as well I recall. £8m purchase, badly injured on debut and out for around a year, but even now only 22 games 4 years later and now loaned back to the Championship.

We definitely SHOULD should be looking at this type of player, but equally in a couple of years time you would hope that the upgrade to the Academy will kick in and we will have one or two more Wilf or AWB’s emerging.
There's no guarantee that if you buy a 28-year-old with previous pedigree for £30m and £130kpw that they're going to be able to replicate success. They might get injured as well.

The overall cost of signing a younger player is less than the cost of an established player, particularly over the life of the contract. Therefore if you do get a dud then you've not necessarily lost much. There's also more chance of selling them to someone for OK money because the wages are lower, whereas if it's someone on £130kpw that's going to be a struggle.

Obviously you can't be expected to have a squad entirely of prospects, but that's not the model I'm advocating. As always it's about achieving the balance. That, too, is easier on paper than it is in reality as it depends on so many factors, not least whether that player is actually available to buy and when.

For your Tyrone Mings I raise you David Brooks and James Maddison, Joe Gomez, Andy Robertson.

Of course football is about making the right decisions at the right time, and it looks easier when you write it down etc without the fluctuating conditions which come attached, but there are certainly some stupid decisions made and people earn good money not to make them.
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  #20134  
Old 01-02-2019, 07:43 PM
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I think this is it. I'd personally like to see us buying the top young stand out players from the championship and establishing them in the premier league with a long term vision and plan at the heart of it all.
Patrick Bamford was ĎChampionship Player of the Yearí when we got him, and look how that worked out. Fortunately we only took him on loan, so we didnít spunk loads on him or get lumbered with him.

Itís an easy thing to say (buy the top players from the championship) but itís not always as easy to do.
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  #20135  
Old 01-02-2019, 07:56 PM
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There's no guarantee that if you buy a 28-year-old with previous pedigree for £30m and £130kpw that they're going to be able to replicate success. They might get injured as well.

The overall cost of signing a younger player is less than the cost of an established player, particularly over the life of the contract. Therefore if you do get a dud then you've not necessarily lost much. There's also more chance of selling them to someone for OK money because the wages are lower, whereas if it's someone on £130kpw that's going to be a struggle.

Obviously you can't be expected to have a squad entirely of prospects, but that's not the model I'm advocating. As always it's about achieving the balance. That, too, is easier on paper than it is in reality as it depends on so many factors, not least whether that player is actually available to buy and when.

For your Tyrone Mings I raise you David Brooks and James Maddison, Joe Gomez, Andy Robertson.

Of course football is about making the right decisions at the right time, and it looks easier when you write it down etc without the fluctuating conditions which come attached, but there are certainly some stupid decisions made and people earn good money not to make them.
I think we agree in principle that that is the ideal way forward, combined with a good Academy, but I would challenge Maddison - he was around £20m and is probably on a fairly typical PL wage at Leicester. However, I donít see us buying loads of high price high wage players - Benteke and Sakho are the only two, and both have played major roles in keeping us up in different seasons. But that is two out of a squad of 25.

The key thing is where we go from here and managerial stability is important with no more panic buy Januaries to stay up a la Pulis and Sam. That is not saying the players they bought were not good but they did have to be ready to go and experienced.
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  #20136  
Old 01-02-2019, 08:10 PM
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I think we agree in principle that that is the ideal way forward, combined with a good Academy, but I would challenge Maddison - he was around £20m and is probably on a fairly typical PL wage at Leicester. However, I donít see us buying loads of high price high wage players - Benteke and Sakho are the only two, and both have played major roles in keeping us up in different seasons. But that is two out of a squad of 25.

The key thing is where we go from here and managerial stability is important with no more panic buy Januaries to stay up a la Pulis and Sam. That is not saying the players they bought were not good but they did have to be ready to go and experienced.
We do agree in principle and I neglected to mention I agree re the academy and I understand that the plans are very exciting.

Maddison is 22 though and unlikely to be on anything north of 70k a week. That's different to spending £20m on a 28yo with pedigree on over 100k a week. That's the difference I'm referring to.
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  #20137  
Old 02-02-2019, 08:00 AM
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norwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietnorwoodeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Of current EPL clubs , the model at Southampton looks to be where Palace aim to be. A welll established, highly regarded and productive academy allied to recruitment of experienced players in the market. A ground with c30,000 capacity and an accessible catchment area.
At present our academy is some way off producing the number of players capable of making the first team. Once developed it will be seen as a tier one choice. We now face competition from not just the London clubs but also Brighton and Southampton.
Ultimately the academy must make a return on the investment and that comes from players in the first team and sales to top clubs.
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
Odd that anyone would suggest Parish was fortunate to land Batman.

The adage that 'you nevet get a good deal waiting until the last minute' has just been disproven, has it not?
You donít think it was fortunate getting a call at 9pm on transfer deadline day being offered a player on desperation terms from Chelsea? Yes, we did very well in closing the deal, although it sounded like they wanted it to happen more than us, but my main worry was that the board thought or transfer window was ok up until about 9pm
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:25 AM
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So where all these unknown players that Doug is so good at scouting? Or does Jach sum up his real ability?
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:27 AM
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You donít think it was fortunate getting a call at 9pm on transfer deadline day being offered a player on desperation terms from Chelsea? Yes, we did very well in closing the deal, although it sounded like they wanted it to happen more than us, but my main worry was that the board thought or transfer window was ok up until about 9pm
There was an element of good fortune, but you also make your own luck. Weíd obviously been in touch with Chelsea before Thursday to express an interest, they didnít just put names in a hat and draw us out; weíd done a bit of squad clearance so that we could take him & afford what weíll have to pay; and probably the way RLC developed and was treated here had a positive effect. If heís going to get slagged for things happening at the last minute to stop deals (clubs pulling out, agents introducing additional fees etc) then itís probably only right that he gets some credit when things fall into place for him.
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