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  #1221  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by red&blue_moomin View Post
Doncaster were brushing him off the ball......He's very young he'll get stronger as he ages and we build his physicality.

You do realise that he trains during the week it's not like he hibernates between matches. This is where we turn him into Yohan Cabaye not during critical matches where we are trying to secure our premiership safety.
Brushing him off the ball, and near enough everything decent we did came through him when we eventually got the ball to him. It's a trade-off. You let him do his thing for additional cutting edge in attack. He's not exactly wasteful on the ball either. Not sure how him getting brushed off the ball on a couple of occasions suggests he shouldn't play? Everything is about balance, three ball winners is unbalanced.

And no I wasn't aware he trains during the week... Again, not sure how that is a relevant point when he's a different sort of player to Cabaye, even a younger one. Meyer needs to be further forward of the other two midfielders. He shouldn't play in the same role as an aging Cabaye, even a younger Cabaye was a different breed, capable of playing centrally in the 4-4-2 at Newcastle with Tiote holding.
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  #1222  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Shipp Ahoy! View Post
It does amuse me how many people continue to fail to see the value of McArthur! He is such an important player for us for years... He does so much work especially off the ball it's untrue.

He is on a much smaller scale a little bit like Fernandinho for City. You don't realise what he does but significantly weaker without him in the team or struggle when he has a bad day!
Not sure anyone has said we don't, or shouldn't value McArthur? I'm certainly not anyway. I understand exactly what he does for us, but there isn't room for him and Kouyate in a three man midfield, it should be one or the other. Luka holding, a more box to box player, and a more creative one. Balance.
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  #1223  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by red&blue_moomin View Post
Doncaster were brushing him off the ball......He's very young he'll get stronger as he ages and we build his physicality.

You do realise that he trains during the week it's not like he hibernates between matches. This is where we turn him into Yohan Cabaye not during critical matches where we are trying to secure our premiership safety.
Were they? He was dispossessed once in the game, and had 1 poor touch losing the ball.
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  #1224  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TennesseeKing View Post
I think therein lies the underlying problem though. How many players do you need to be solid when off the ball? If you can't accommodate a playmaker with two ball winners in centre mid already then we are always going to struggle. I also am not so sure he's questionable off the ball either. I've seen him win the ball and intercept with more than his fair share.

If we continue playing workhorses that do a little bit of everything, but aren't able to really hurt other teams on the ball. Wilf and the like are going to continue to struggle due to having less support in attack.
If you're playing in a midfield three, which we are largely fielding, then all three should ideally be technically capable and be a strong ball winner. And when push comes to shove and you don't have three perfect midfielders, a situation any but the top clubs face, then in my opinion you er on the side of caution and put ball winning ahead of creativity. You're likely to leak goals if you can't get control of the midfield and stop them playing. Most managers, Pardew aside, lean on the side of solidity over creativity - but of course it's a balance.

It's not that Max doesn't have a defensive game it's just that Luka, Cheikhou, McArthur and even Schlupp have a better one. Luka and Schlupp arguably have recently been better than Max offensively too, but that is a different question.
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  #1225  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TennesseeKing View Post
Not sure anyone has said we don't, or shouldn't value McArthur? I'm certainly not anyway. I understand exactly what he does for us, but there isn't room for him and Kouyate in a three man midfield, it should be one or the other. Luka holding, a more box to box player, and a more creative one. Balance.
Agreed - balance. Just each of us will have our own tactical ideas of the right balance. You'd field a more attacking/less defensive team than I, and no-one can say for sure who is right.
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  #1226  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:50 PM
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I don't think people fail to see Macca's value at all. People are now starting to notice a dip in form. I personally would have Max in for him at the moment. Kouyate and Luka in the middle with Max just in front and pushing forward is our best midfield at the moment IMO.
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  #1227  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wavey View Post
If you're playing in a midfield three, which we are largely fielding, then all three should ideally be technically capable and be a strong ball winner. And when push comes to shove and you don't have three perfect midfielders, a situation any but the top clubs face, then in my opinion you er on the side of caution and put ball winning ahead of creativity. You're likely to leak goals if you can't get control of the midfield and stop them playing. Most managers, Pardew aside, lean on the side of solidity over creativity - but of course it's a balance.

It's not that Max doesn't have a defensive game it's just that Luka, Cheikhou, McArthur and even Schlupp have a better one. Luka and Schlupp arguably have recently been better than Max offensively too, but that is a different question.
A perfectly reasonable view. It's not one I wholeheartedly agree with but you argue your reasoning for it well.

I disagree on all three having to be proficient at ball winning though. It's a system that can become far too rigid, and teams that are able to really keep hold of the ball can begin to hurt you when you sacrifice the ability to offer another dimension to attack outside of win the ball, hit it long or out wide and attack quickly on the break. This is especially the case when playing at home.

There is a far better argument for this system being utilised away from home, and in honesty I'm not sure it's one I disagree with because packing out the centre of midfield, breaking quickly with pace using schlupp and kouyate to push into the area when Wilf or Townsend break works.

It's just at home I think we've been doing the same thing over and over again consistently for a number of years in the prem.

It goes back to Ledley, Jedinak and McArthur, the most workmanlike midfield you could ever ask for. It did a reasonable job, nobody would ever deny that. But should a midfield focusing purely on hustle and bustle predominantly be the best we can do 3/4 years later, when we have technical quality available to really start posing more difficult questions to the opposition? I don't believe so, and there's plenty of examples in recent years of teams that had more creativity in their three man midfields, Swansea with Britton/Allen and Sigurdsson being the most prominent that comes to mind.
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  #1228  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wavey View Post
Agreed - balance. Just each of us will have our own tactical ideas of the right balance. You'd field a more attacking/less defensive team than I, and no-one can say for sure who is right.
As above, your viewpoint isn't a million miles away from my own line of thinking and I agree it is all subject to interpretation.

My belief is away from home it works great, don't change things that aren't broke. At home though we really should be able to be a bit more adventurous going forward 4/5 years after being promoted. Meyer offers us something which I don't feel we've really had in our time in the prem, possibly Chamakh aside? for a brief spell when he played in the hole. Just having somebody able to do something with the ball, a bit differently in the central spaces would make us less one dimensional.
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  #1229  
Old 19-02-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wavey View Post
If you're playing in a midfield three, which we are largely fielding, then all three should ideally be technically capable and be a strong ball winner. And when push comes to shove and you don't have three perfect midfielders, a situation any but the top clubs face, then in my opinion you er on the side of caution and put ball winning ahead of creativity. You're likely to leak goals if you can't get control of the midfield and stop them playing. Most managers, Pardew aside, lean on the side of solidity over creativity - but of course it's a balance.

It's not that Max doesn't have a defensive game it's just that Luka, Cheikhou, McArthur and even Schlupp have a better one. Luka and Schlupp arguably have recently been better than Max offensively too, but that is a different question.
Solidity stops you conceding, creativity helps you score. Only 1 point on offer if you don't find the net.

Yes it is a balance but teams that don't score goals generally struggle and often don't get good gates as it is not exciting to watch.

We have the 6th best defence and the 5th worst attack. Might be worth shifting the balance a bit towards creativity and score a few more points.
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  #1230  
Old 19-02-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Solidity stops you conceding, creativity helps you score. Only 1 point on offer if you don't find the net.

Yes it is a balance but teams that don't score goals generally struggle and often don't get good gates as it is not exciting to watch.

We have the 6th best defence and the 5th worst attack. Might be worth shifting the balance a bit towards creativity and score a few more points.
All true, but the first goal is often crucial.
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  #1231  
Old 19-02-2019, 05:18 PM
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Meyer is clearly a wonderful technical player. A few levels up from Bannan and Williams, he has the pedigree at a young age to show he can succeed.

I think in a midfield three he can excel - with Luka and Kouyate in support. Wilf comes alive when Meyer has the ball.

However, Roy and his set up is about recovery shape, recovery time and distances between the lines. Basic analysis shows that these are better with one or both of Jimmy or Schlupp playing (in 4-4-2 or 4-3-3).

As such, I am in the camp of thinking Meyer should be playing but can understand why he is not playing and do not expect him start. And while he is making an impact off the bench at least, he's keeping his end of the bargain.
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  #1232  
Old 19-02-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TennesseeKing View Post
Brushing him off the ball, and near enough everything decent we did came through him when we eventually got the ball to him. It's a trade-off. You let him do his thing for additional cutting edge in attack. He's not exactly wasteful on the ball either. Not sure how him getting brushed off the ball on a couple of occasions suggests he shouldn't play? Everything is about balance, three ball winners is unbalanced.

And no I wasn't aware he trains during the week... Again, not sure how that is a relevant point when he's a different sort of player to Cabaye, even a younger one. Meyer needs to be further forward of the other two midfielders. He shouldn't play in the same role as an aging Cabaye, even a younger Cabaye was a different breed, capable of playing centrally in the 4-4-2 at Newcastle with Tiote holding.
Meyer does not like playing the number 10 role and neither does he like playing on the right. Ray Lewington was asked about why Max wasn't playing regularly months ago and gave a pretty comprehensive answer. He is a more attacking minded player but it's a question of fitting him into the team and into our tactics and game plan. We create lots of chances. It's the strike force getting them on target that is the problem.

Yet we've been scoring a goal or two a match and now we have lots of strikers creating competition and now making space for the midfielders to get in the box as the oppo concentrate on the strikers. We have one of the best GDs in the lower half better than double some of our relegation rivals. We are 13th FFS, sixth highest number of clean sheets in the division or so. Using Roy's tactics and setup. I'd suggest it's not actually as broken as you think.

His last season in Germany he played in the Cabaye role and it was the season Shalke came second he was the lynch pin player for large parts of the season. It was the most effective he'd been in a season or two. The club gave him the number 7 shirt FFS. There's a clue there.
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  #1233  
Old 19-02-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by red&blue_moomin View Post
Meyer does not like playing the number 10 role and neither does he like playing on the right. Ray Lewington was asked about why Max wasn't playing regularly months ago and gave a pretty comprehensive answer. He is a more attacking minded player but it's a question of fitting him into the team and into our tactics and game plan. We create lots of chances. It's the strike force getting them on target that is the problem.

Yet we've been scoring a goal or two a match and now we have lots of strikers creating competition and now making space for the midfielders to get in the box as the oppo concentrate on the strikers. We have one of the best GDs in the lower half better than double some of our relegation rivals. We are 13th FFS, sixth highest number of clean sheets in the division or so. Using Roy's tactics and setup. I'd suggest it's not actually as broken as you think.

His last season in Germany he played in the Cabaye role and it was the season Shalke came second he was the lynch pin player for large parts of the season. It was the most effective he'd been in a season or two. The club gave him the number 7 shirt FFS. There's a clue there.
My view also. We don't lack creativity - we lack goals, although that seems to be improving, a surprise since we have strikers available again?

And here is the article you referenced I think.

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  #1234  
Old 19-02-2019, 06:48 PM
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My view also. We don't lack creativity - we lack goals, although that seems to be improving, a surprise since we have strikers available again?

And here is the article you referenced I think.

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Thanks for linking, hadn't seen.
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  #1235  
Old 19-02-2019, 07:01 PM
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My view also. We don't lack creativity - we lack goals, although that seems to be improving, a surprise since we have strikers available again?

And here is the article you referenced I think.

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That's the one thanks. He's more likely to leave the club if we were to stick him in the number 10 role that a lot so crave him to go into. Last year as I recall Yohan had high tackling, interception stats (actually shading out Luka) but he also had high defensive dribbling and chance creation stats and he certainly was not a sitting midfielder. In fact I'm pretty sure him and Luka would rotate their positioning
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  #1236  
Old 19-02-2019, 10:30 PM
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Max will be much better next season after a preseason with the club. Remember he hadn't played in 6 months before we signed him, no preseason and then having to adapt to the PL.
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  #1237  
Old 19-02-2019, 11:05 PM
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Max will be much better next season after a preseason with the club. Remember he hadn't played in 6 months before we signed him, no preseason and then having to adapt to the PL.
This is a good assessment. I think it's fair to say that he's progressing nicely. He's not the "wunderkind" he was built up to be a couple of years ago, so expecting him to take the Premier League by storm is a big ask. He will take a little time to get up to speed but once he gets there, he could still be a little gem.
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Old 19-02-2019, 11:15 PM
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He's a decent player but there's opinion on these boards that he's better than he's shown. Also the idea that we can ponce about with a no 10 when the game's changed so much over the last three years is crap.
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Old 19-02-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Solidity stops you conceding, creativity helps you score. Only 1 point on offer if you don't find the net.

Yes it is a balance but teams that don't score goals generally struggle and often don't get good gates as it is not exciting to watch.

We have the 6th best defence and the 5th worst attack. Might be worth shifting the balance a bit towards creativity and score a few more points.
We have the sixth or seventh best attack on chances created, though. On that basis we should be looking at a high scoring midfielder, not one to create still more chances we fail to put away.
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Old 20-02-2019, 03:28 AM
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Hong Kong Eagle Hong Kong Eagle is offline
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Hong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietHong Kong Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Solidity stops you conceding, creativity helps you score. Only 1 point on offer if you don't find the net.

Yes it is a balance but teams that don't score goals generally struggle and often don't get good gates as it is not exciting to watch.

We have the 6th best defence and the 5th worst attack. Might be worth shifting the balance a bit towards creativity and score a few more points.
Exactly, if you don't score then 3 pts are off the table,unless it's a own goal by the oppo ( for the pedants )
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