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  #36361  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Corbyn was not popular among anybody. If I could have had another leader with similar policy proposals (and selfishly some minor tweaks) then I would. The chances of Corbyn being the person to deliver a majority for Labour was always reliant on a crap Tory leader. But Corbyn was the best person who put himself forward at the time of Labour's 2 leadership elections. You can only pick from what is there.
Wellhe got crap Tory leader(s) yet was still slaughtered at the polls

Biggest problem I can see was that he did not have the courage of his convictions, i.e. Supporting the exit of the EU which is what he personally wanted this was also Mays problem as she was a remainer.

Instead he objected to it merely because it was the opposite position to the governments
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  #36362  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Corbyn was not popular among anybody. If I could have had another leader with similar policy proposals (and selfishly some minor tweaks) then I would. The chances of Corbyn being the person to deliver a majority for Labour was always reliant on a crap Tory leader. But Corbyn was the best person who put himself forward at the time of Labour's 2 leadership elections. You can only pick from what is there.


When did you have this major realisation LOL
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  #36363  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:38 AM
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Corbyn was not popular among anybody...
Sorry, meee, but that's just not true.

I don't really understand Twitter, but had a look at it yesterday for two stories (JC's letter in which he couldn't count to six, and a New Statesman article by the former MP for Sedgefield) and the cult-like adoration for the dim beardy marrow-fondler was terrifying.
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  #36364  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
Corbyn was not popular among anybody. If I could have had another leader with similar policy proposals (and selfishly some minor tweaks) then I would. The chances of Corbyn being the person to deliver a majority for Labour was always reliant on a crap Tory leader. But Corbyn was the best person who put himself forward at the time of Labour's 2 leadership elections. You can only pick from what is there.
By 2019 this was certainly true, where he was at his most unpopular, but it was for most of his leadership to be fair. I mean on average across different groups.

There was a blip in 2017 where he was reasonably popular. And that I think was because of Labour’s ideas and shows that whether someone is popular is about the ideas more than them.

But he squandered that. As said earlier the labour left did nothing to build things outside of electoral politics. Momentum was an utter failure in that regard (and most).

The ruthlessness that Blair’s advisor says Starmer should have (that Heb put up without comment), goes way too far as is undemocratic and authoritarian. But Corbyn was weak in taking on his internal opposition. He did next to nothing to assert control or make things democratic. Conference wasn’t made sovereign and members continued to have little to no choice about who their candidates would be. Barely anything changed.

He then compounded all this by having Stalinist advisors and the 2019 manifesto was all over the place, and of course there was the mess in dealing with anti Semitism. Of course Brexit was a big issue, and I think those who think some parliamentary games could have been used are firstly falling themselves and secondly would have set up a very dangerous situation which the alt right would have jumped on. But it was about far more than that.
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  #36365  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Hal Low View Post
Really ?

Corbyn was very popular a few years ago but events have shown he was no leader. Johnson was very popular a few weeks ago - and the outcome is yet to be seen. Arthur Scargill (miners leader from the 70s/80s) was both correct and hugely popular and yet he led his members to disaster.

Anyway - there is no discussion that can't be helped along by a cliché so here is my contribution to show that you are wrong:

"The loneliness of leadership"
I could be wrong, but I don’t think Corbyn had a positive approval rating. The best he got to was a very brief period of time at 0

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There was a time when he was less unpopular than May though. Now all you need to win is for the other person to be more unpopular (Johnson also was unpopular at the last election, just less unpopular than Corbyn), but better to have a leader who is actually popular.

Leaders often at least start with a positive approval rating (though tends to drop after they’re elected

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  #36366  
Old 02-04-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 917L View Post
Wellhe got crap Tory leader(s) yet was still slaughtered at the polls

Biggest problem I can see was that he did not have the courage of his convictions, i.e. Supporting the exit of the EU which is what he personally wanted this was also Mays problem as she was a remainer.

Instead he objected to it merely because it was the opposite position to the governments
May was crap,predictably crap.Boris on the other hand is to most of the BBS,including me,but with his 3 word Brexit slogans and the people in his cabinet he was able to gain enough trust with the sycophantic Brexit supporters that he would deliver a Brexit that meant they didn't have to vote Brexit party as a protest.Combine that with all of the Tories and Tory voters rallying around him against Corbyn and you have a big majority.

Corbyn was not a leaver by the time the referendum came around.He has held a Eurosceptic view his entire political career but he is as aware as anyone else of the dangers of a right wing Brexit.We were never going to get a left wing version of Brexit,whatever that was by this point.Most on the left supported remain with very good reason.

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When did you have this major realisation LOL
Major realisation?I have said it all along.Come up with a better alternative as leader and we can discuss it.If there is one thing this leadership election has proved it's that there was no one out there better.

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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
Sorry, meee, but that's just not true.

I don't really understand Twitter, but had a look at it yesterday for two stories (JC's letter in which he couldn't count to six, and a New Statesman article by the former MP for Sedgefield) and the cult-like adoration for the dim beardy marrow-fondler was terrifying.
There are always exceptions but when it comes to politics you have to rally around somebody to beat the other side/sides.Of course I have some policy disagreements and definitely some strategy disagreements with Labour and Corbyn as leader,but you have to put them to one side and unify around some important policy objectives.If you get elected on the back of that,increase wages,improve workers' rights etc etc then you can start to have an argument about some of the other issues that are less important to the electorate.I thought the Labour manifesto in both 2017 and 2019 was something that people who describe themselves as centre or centre left could get on board with from a policy point of view.Obviously they have other priorities,although for the life of me I can't work out what they are.
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  #36367  
Old 03-04-2020, 06:51 AM
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Again not all sides were willing to accept Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman. Again they oppose the left on a range of issues, the same left that had a significant proportion of the MPs in parliament at the time including the leader of the largest opposition party. But apparently you can just ignore us and tout any centrist candidate as "the compromise ". They are always "the compromise" apparently. How about letting the leader of the largest opposition party be the leader of this coalition if it was only temporary? What a shockingly controversial idea.

The Lib Dems and the SNP went for the election before Labour. Labour were forced into backing it because it was going to pass and you can't start an election campaign looking like you don't want one in opposition. Labour knew the polls and the size of the problem they would have in an election but the Lib Dems saw an opportunity to get more MPs and the SNP did get more MPs.
Obviously you don't grasp the concept of 'compromise'.

The very point of a unity government was that it was meant to be a basically single-issue, temporary administration. The problem is that Corbyn had already been talking about replacing the Tories with a permanent Labour government. He'd been calling for an election because he promised he could achieve that, and was transparently trying to use Brexit as a means to that end. He wasn't talking about a genuine unity Remain coalition. The other parties quite rightly didn't believe or trust him.

As for Labour being forced into the election by the Lib Dems and SNP, don't make me laugh. Corbyn had spent months calling for one (though from your post I infer you put that down as his mealy-mouthed posturing) and the other parties were trying to get support for the aforementioned coalition idea. In the end, they just got fed up with Corbyn being the unreliable boyfriend, and the unending paralysis of a Remain parliament that couldn't agree on Remain, and decided to take the issue to the country (the Lib Dems hubristically, the SNP cannily).
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  #36368  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:16 AM
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I don't really understand Twitter, but had a look at it yesterday for two stories (JC's letter in which he couldn't count to six
My feeble googling skills can't find this letter, have you a link?
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  #36369  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:04 PM
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Obviously you don't grasp the concept of 'compromise'.

The very point of a unity government was that it was meant to be a basically single-issue, temporary administration. The problem is that Corbyn had already been talking about replacing the Tories with a permanent Labour government. He'd been calling for an election because he promised he could achieve that, and was transparently trying to use Brexit as a means to that end. He wasn't talking about a genuine unity Remain coalition. The other parties quite rightly didn't believe or trust him.

As for Labour being forced into the election by the Lib Dems and SNP, don't make me laugh. Corbyn had spent months calling for one (though from your post I infer you put that down as his mealy-mouthed posturing) and the other parties were trying to get support for the aforementioned coalition idea. In the end, they just got fed up with Corbyn being the unreliable boyfriend, and the unending paralysis of a Remain parliament that couldn't agree on Remain, and decided to take the issue to the country (the Lib Dems hubristically, the SNP cannily).
Yes the push for an election was posturing.The only reason Labour could have possibly wanted an election is the fact they were in opposition.There was no other good reason,because even to the eternal optimist it was obvious it was going to be impossible to go anything but backwards from 2017.

I do understand the idea of compromise.But compromise works both ways.Just coming up with names that you consider people that could unify a cause doesn't mean they actually would.I massively disagree with a lot of Ken Clarke's politics,I'm sure a number of Labour MPs feel the same,so what makes him any more of a unity candidate than anyone else?I accept that if it was me making the decision I would have agreed to either Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman being leader of a remain coalition in order to stop the Tories on Brexit but I lay no blame on Corbyn or his team for not agreeing to those demands,particularly as we don't know the full nature of the discussions.
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  #36370  
Old 03-04-2020, 01:06 PM
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:05 PM
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My feeble googling skills can't find this letter, have you a link?
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  #36372  
Old 04-04-2020, 08:05 AM
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Oh dear.
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  #36373  
Old 04-04-2020, 08:11 AM
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What's worse than the letter are the vitriolic comments from the JC acolytes - Jim Jones had nothing on Corbyn.
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Old 04-04-2020, 03:56 PM
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Good riddance.
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  #36375  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:59 AM
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Good riddance.
Spot on.

Thatcher when asked what her greatest achievement was replied 'Tony Blair'.

Unfortunately what Corbyn achieved was May and Johnson.

What a total disaster he has proved to be not just for labour but for all of us.
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  #36376  
Old 05-04-2020, 08:25 AM
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Thank fck he's finally gone.
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Old 14-04-2020, 03:15 AM
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Old 14-04-2020, 08:22 AM
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He's bang on the money for me, not anti-semitic, not anti-zionist, pro 2 state solution, but anti Netanyahu administration and far right nationalism.
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