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  #31101  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
In relation to your latter point, the difference is that you and others (perfectly reasonably) refer to the plight of the Palestinians very regularly and the need for a right of return for them.What you and others rarely if ever refer to are the ethnically cleansed Jews and the property seized from them.It doesn't fit into a black and white good guy/bad guy scenario.The only reason that masses of them aren't in camps is that Israel housed them whilst in the lands Palestinians largely ended up min,camps were kept going rather than proper housing as a conscious decision,for political reasons.

In relation to your first point,I think you misunderstand.Read my post again.It is not anti semitic to suggest Palestinians have a right of return,of course it isn't. The state of Israel as constituted is not the same per se as self determination and a homeland. The right to self determination and a homeland applies equally to both Jews and Palestinians.

Regarding apartheid in the West Bank,you still don't know what apartheid as an ideology actually was.It ain't apartheid,it is brutal oppression under occupation but apartheid is lazily bandied around for additional emotive impact,a bit like references in other contexts to fascists.
Well there is a reason for that. Most Jewish people don't want to return to those countries, there is no movement around that. Where as millions of Palestinians are in camps, trapped in the Gazan prison camp or in the apartheid West Bank. But as already said it was appalling and I would happily support compensation or their right to return.

Talking of hoary old tropes or whatever you say, the classic of blaming the countries they went to, rather than Israel for not allowing the right of return is a classic one.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. The IHRA definition specifically mentions Israel when saying it is wrong to deny the self determination of Jewish people. I think that's wrong. As apart from anything else it then means supporting the right of return for Palestinians, meaning Jewish people couldn't be a majority, is then seen as anti-Semitic.

I do know what apartheid is an ideology and a lot of it revolves around the denial of anothers national rights. But the West Bank of course has all the apartheid infrastructure. Walls put up and separate roads. Of course it's apartheid.
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  #31102  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
How dare you Les. For your information I gave a rousing speech at my union meeting denouncing the imperialist Israelis and their nefarious plots (my comrades carried me out on their shoulders cheering), then did a collection down the pub to continue the struggle, and finally I went to my PLP and shouted at my MP that she's a Mossad agent until she started crying and I was asked to leave.

Now I'm going to accuse anonymous people on here of not doing enough even though it's just a message board.

I'm practically a hero in Palestine. Probably.
Leaving aside that this is a pathetic attempt at humour, it backs up the point that you like to judge others, while lining your pockets in the middle east, and doing jack shit.

But heh carry on telling others that they don't do enough and play the high and mighty.

At least me telling you that has clearly got under your skin. Because you know it's true.
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  #31103  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
Nice I never suggested the treatment of China and Israel is similar.

There are usually Tibetan protests in Europe when Chinese delegations arrive.
Yes. Some Tibetans. Rarely any mass rallies or co-ordinated protests from Labour.

There is an obsession with Israel/Palestine in Labour. which has grown over the years (there was always an element focussed on it). I see it first hand. Resolutions, collections, drives, campaigns, stalls. This isn't to diminish the horrendous oppression they face. TAnd it's not whataboutery or trying to create a league table of awful governments. But China? Turkey? Saudi? Myanmar? DRC? Yes, there is some attention, some words, some condemnation. All short term and limp.
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  #31104  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Shouldn’t have taken Heb off ignore. Same old rubbish. Apparently no one here talking about Palestine cared about Assad bombing Palestinians.

But I was actively involved in the Syrian Solidarity Campaign, raised medical aid, and raised and campaigned that specific issue.

I suspect Heb did jack shit, but of course was happy lining his pockets in the Middle East. But apparently feels like he can judge others.
Others on your own side of the argument have, as you put it ( done jack shit ) do they get their right of opinion removed or lambasted ? And you doing your bit made how much difference ? other than making you think you are morally superior to anyone that didn't.
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  #31105  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
Others on your own side of the argument have, as you put it ( done jack shit ) do they get their right of opinion removed or lambasted ? And you doing your bit made how much difference ? other than making you think you are morally superior to anyone that didn't.
You’ve got it all mixed up. I don’t think people should have to justify what they’ve done or not. Not if someone like Heb is gonna start making comments to others about what they’ve said or done on issues, then expect to be asked in return.

As for campaigning yes I think it makes a difference, even if only in small ways. Solidarity medical aid for instance is a good thing.
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  #31106  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
Yes. Some Tibetans. Rarely any mass rallies or co-ordinated protests from Labour.

There is an obsession with Israel/Palestine in Labour. which has grown over the years (there was always an element focussed on it). I see it first hand. Resolutions, collections, drives, campaigns, stalls. This isn't to diminish the horrendous oppression they face. TAnd it's not whataboutery or trying to create a league table of awful governments. But China? Turkey? Saudi? Myanmar? DRC? Yes, there is some attention, some words, some condemnation. All short term and limp.
Same was said about those protesting apartheid South Africa.
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  #31107  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post
My view is that there should be work towards a two state solution,with both the rights of Israelis and Palestinians protected and they should be free to have the governments they wish to have.

Does that make me anti-Semitic or not?
Its too late for that, there's too many jewish settlements for that to happen now. That solution is over.
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  #31108  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I don't think they fit in to things at all. They are businesses run by rich bosses. My point is, whether the examples are 80 years old are not, that workers are easily capable of running their own workplaces collectively.

John Lewis is employee owned and Richer sounds is in the process of becoming employee owned. Where do you get this stuff.
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  #31109  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Its too late for that, there's too many jewish settlements for that to happen now. That solution is over.
I don't think this is true, yet. Land swaps and moving people are both possible if there is polical will.
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  #31110  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nicky View Post
The choice is a two state solution or war forever.
War forever it is then, I should point out that there hasn't been many breaks from war in the last 2000years in the middle east.
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  #31111  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Same was said about those protesting apartheid South Africa.
And?

How does that stop us considering just why the Palestine/Israel issue has become THE main foreign policy/human rights focus of the current day Labour Party (it has been for a long while for a certain strata but this is more widespread now)? Almost to the exclusion of anything else, beyond lip service.
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  #31112  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
War forever it is then, I should point out that there hasn't been many breaks from war in the last 2000years in the middle east.
Well the Ottomans controlled the levant for nearly 400 years, and aside from the Naqib al-Ashraf revolt and Egypt getting a little tasty for a little bit of the nineteenth century, it couldn’t really be described as “war” until WW1. It has been exceptionally shit since then, certainly.
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  #31113  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Well the Ottomans controlled the levant for nearly 400 years, and aside from the Naqib al-Ashraf revolt and Egypt getting a little tasty for a little bit of the nineteenth century, it couldn’t really be described as “war” until WW1. It has been exceptionally shit since then, certainly.
I'm not even sure over the last 2000 years that there's been more years of war in the Middle East than in Europe.
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  #31114  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:20 PM
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A blunt assessment by Labour MP Lisa Nandy, who says she's not sure the party "can survive".

She tells @EmmaBarnett a meeting of MPs on Monday was “terrible” and she worries the "coalition" of different views can't hold together.To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #31115  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Yes, I'm, equally angry with China about Tibet, …………………....
You need to calm down about that, apart from the strategic importance as a buffer between India, the Yangtze rises in Tibet and the Yellow River on the Tibetan Plateau, they ain't ever giving that up.
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  #31116  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
Yes. Some Tibetans. Rarely any mass rallies or co-ordinated protests from Labour.

There is an obsession with Israel/Palestine in Labour. which has grown over the years (there was always an element focussed on it). I see it first hand. Resolutions, collections, drives, campaigns, stalls. This isn't to diminish the horrendous oppression they face. TAnd it's not whataboutery or trying to create a league table of awful governments. But China? Turkey? Saudi? Myanmar? DRC? Yes, there is some attention, some words, some condemnation. All short term and limp.
Tis true and a fair point.
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  #31117  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
BBC Radio 5 Live
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A blunt assessment by Labour MP Lisa Nandy, who says she's not sure the party "can survive".

She tells @EmmaBarnett a meeting of MPs on Monday was “terrible” and she worries the "coalition" of different views can't hold together.To view the link you have to Register or Login
Which party is she speaking about it could be both
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  #31118  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:54 PM
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Hints of 81 again?

Who could be the gang of four..
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  #31119  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
And?

How does that stop us considering just why the Palestine/Israel issue has become THE main foreign policy/human rights focus of the current day Labour Party (it has been for a long while for a certain strata but this is more widespread now)? Almost to the exclusion of anything else, beyond lip service.
Could it be a latent strain of anti americanism as well in the labour party?
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  #31120  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gold76 View Post
Hints of 81 again?

Who could be the gang of four..
I think you must have blinked and missed the Independent Group/Change UK.
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