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  #31221  
Old 15-06-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
Wouldn’t that be a tax on the poor? You can rent out a two bed flat purchased at £300k for about £1200 pcm. A 5 bed detached purchased for £1,000,000 might get £2250.

Yields tend to go down the higher the price (as a general rule of thumb)
Poor don't often own much property.
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  #31222  
Old 15-06-2019, 04:56 PM
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Poor don't often own much property.
A poor person might well own a £45 k house in Sunderland. Should they pay tax on the rental value (approx 12.5% yield) while someone who lives in Sevenoaks pays based on his million pound house (approx 2.5-3% yield)?

Seems a bit unfair.

Also who is going to value every house and flat in the uk for both sales values and rental yields?
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  #31223  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
A poor person might well own a £45 k house in Sunderland. Should they pay tax on the rental value (approx 12.5% yield) while someone who lives in Sevenoaks pays based on his million pound house (approx 2.5-3% yield)?

Seems a bit unfair.

Also who is going to value every house and flat in the uk for both sales values and rental yields?
You can get that info from Zoopla or somewhere similar. And % yields are one thing and hard cash is another. Rent in the south is a lot higher than in the north.
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  #31224  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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You can get that info from Zoopla or somewhere similar. And % yields are one thing and hard cash is another. Rent in the south is a lot higher than in the north.
Can you? 1: shit loads of houses don’t have a value on zoopla as they haven’t transacted recently enough. 2: it’s normally wrong. 3: it has no means of knowing if a property has been extended/demolished/ done up. In other words it cannot know the value.

Of course rents are higher but if the tax were say 2% of yield a 40 k house pulling in £650 pcm month would pay £156 per annum. The £1 million £540 per annum despite the million pound house bein worth 25 times more.

Does that sound fair to you? The rents may be lower up north but as a percentage of the wealth (this is a wealth tax right) the north would pay way way more than the south.

Last edited by Hpalace; 15-06-2019 at 05:28 PM.
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  #31225  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NickP View Post
Ah! you've gone down this path before.

If you buy something you own it - it is a wealth producing asset. Nationalised assets usually fail because they are starved of resources (sometimes as a prelude to privatisation). But I accept there is a risk to operations - if you think they a are working well currently and people aren't being routinely ripped off or let down.
Yep, you have an existing asset. And a corresponding liability (the borrowing to purchase the asset) which in this case will be the full value of the asset. The additional contribution to the country is zero. The multiplier effect is zero. So we’re walking away from any multiplier, any new investment. So it is already farcically stupid and only an ideological play, but let’s ignore that for the time being.

In order to stay neutral what you need to to do is not **** up how that asset is run. Now a company purchasing an asset would look for synergies with its existing operations. How it intends to increase the value of what it has bought. Otherwise what’s the point in paying open market value (including the premium for the controlling stake). What it definitely wouldn’t try to do is **** up the asset it acquired. Now perhaps when McDonnell said he’d immediately replace the senior management following nationalisation, he thought that would be an improvement.

If you look at household electricity prices in Europe we pay roughly in the middle of the pack, but we don’t directly subsidise electricity prices (which lots of countries do - we indirectly subsidise some elements of peak capacity availability, but everyone does that). So I would assert we are not being screwed.

I’ll certainly concede we’re being screwed over rail. Network Rail, the nationalised part of our rail network is appallingly run, far far far more expensive than some of its European competitors. It costs taxpayers several billion a year, and the beneficiaries of that are generally the well off (as the rail users are well off compared to the general public). So we have a shite nationalised part which results in a subsidy for the well off. Not a good place to be.
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  #31226  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Yep, you have an existing asset. And a corresponding liability (the borrowing to purchase the asset) which in this case will be the full value of the asset. The additional contribution to the country is zero. The multiplier effect is zero. So we’re walking away from any multiplier, any new investment. So it is already farcically stupid and only an ideological play, but let’s ignore that for the time being.

In order to stay neutral what you need to to do is not **** up how that asset is run. Now a company purchasing an asset would look for synergies with its existing operations. How it intends to increase the value of what it has bought. Otherwise what’s the point in paying open market value (including the premium for the controlling stake). What it definitely wouldn’t try to do is **** up the asset it acquired. Now perhaps when McDonnell said he’d immediately replace the senior management following nationalisation, he thought that would be an improvement.

If you look at household electricity prices in Europe we pay roughly in the middle of the pack, but we don’t directly subsidise electricity prices (which lots of countries do - we indirectly subsidise some elements of peak capacity availability, but everyone does that). So I would assert we are not being screwed.

I’ll certainly concede we’re being screwed over rail. Network Rail, the nationalised part of our rail network is appallingly run, far far far more expensive than some of its European competitors. It costs taxpayers several billion a year, and the beneficiaries of that are generally the well off (as the rail users are well off compared to the general public). So we have a shite nationalised part which results in a subsidy for the well off. Not a good place to be.
Surely, some of the individual franchise holders are nationalised - just not this nation?
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  #31227  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
Surely, some of the individual franchise holders are nationalised - just not this nation?
On rail? Yes. Yes they are. You want to know why? Because it isn’t the return they make (which is pretty poor). Practice. The fourth railway package is coming and we’re the only place that liberalised its market in advance.
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  #31228  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:22 PM
NickP NickP is offline
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Yep, you have an existing asset. And a corresponding liability (the borrowing to purchase the asset) which in this case will be the full value of the asset. The additional contribution to the country is zero. The multiplier effect is zero. So we’re walking away from any multiplier, any new investment. So it is already farcically stupid and only an ideological play, but let’s ignore that for the time being.

In order to stay neutral what you need to to do is not **** up how that asset is run. Now a company purchasing an asset would look for synergies with its existing operations. How it intends to increase the value of what it has bought. Otherwise what’s the point in paying open market value (including the premium for the controlling stake). What it definitely wouldn’t try to do is **** up the asset it acquired. Now perhaps when McDonnell said he’d immediately replace the senior management following nationalisation, he thought that would be an improvement.

If you look at household electricity prices in Europe we pay roughly in the middle of the pack, but we don’t directly subsidise electricity prices (which lots of countries do - we indirectly subsidise some elements of peak capacity availability, but everyone does that). So I would assert we are not being screwed.

I’ll certainly concede we’re being screwed over rail. Network Rail, the nationalised part of our rail network is appallingly run, far far far more expensive than some of its European competitors. It costs taxpayers several billion a year, and the beneficiaries of that are generally the well off (as the rail users are well off compared to the general public). So we have a shite nationalised part which results in a subsidy for the well off. Not a good place to be.
oh yeah? Well you will be buying your energy from the Government so there's that.

Big problem with anything nationalised is when it tries to do business with the private players - that's when it goes wrong. If my train is late I'd much rather moan about our shared service than be ripped off by some Tory donor at exactly the same time.

You have no evidence whatsoever that privatised competitive firms provide a better service - all they do is make as much money as they can.
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  #31229  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:24 PM
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On rail? Yes. Yes they are. You want to know why? Because it isn’t the return they make (which is pretty poor). Practice. The fourth railway package is coming and we’re the only place that liberalised its market in advance.
It's vital ******** infrastructure - we need to provide it, and we need to get people off the roads and using it. There's a bigger picture than lining Branson's pockets here.
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  #31230  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:29 PM
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oh yeah? Well you will be buying your energy from the Government so there's that.

Big problem with anything nationalised is when it tries to do business with the private players - that's when it goes wrong. If my train is late I'd much rather moan about our shared service than be ripped off by some Tory donor at exactly the same time.

You have no evidence whatsoever that privatised competitive firms provide a better service - all they do is make as much money as they can.
A privatised company in a natural monopoly will almost certainly will screw everyone it can if it is not regulated.

That’s why we have regulation. So electricity distribution, which is heavily regulated, and the part Corbyn wants to nationalise, already has some of the lowest distribution costs in the EU that the customer pays. Without subsidy. So our privately and highly regulated distribution network is much cheaper than other European state run and subsidised distribution networks.
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  #31231  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:30 PM
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It's vital ******** infrastructure - we need to provide it, and we need to get people off the roads and using it. There's a bigger picture than lining Branson's pockets here.
The infrastructure is already nationalised.
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  #31232  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:33 PM
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A privatised company in a natural monopoly will almost certainly will screw everyone it can if it is not regulated.

That’s why we have regulation. So electricity distribution, which is heavily regulated, and the part Corbyn wants to nationalise, already has some of the lowest distribution costs in the EU that the customer pays. Without subsidy. So our privately and highly regulated distribution network is much cheaper than other European state run and subsidised distribution networks.
But the regulation hasn't and doesn't work, does it? Nobody has a clue what is the cheapest supplier, and even when they switch it doesn't make any difference. Blatant and persistent misrepresentation and ripoff.

It's obvious that everybody would gp to the cheapest supplier (of exactly the same stuff) if there was any clarity which supplier that was.
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  #31233  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:35 PM
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The infrastructure is already nationalised.
But the service & price is sh*t. Which means the infrastructure is basically being used to milk travellers and drive people away.
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  #31234  
Old 15-06-2019, 05:38 PM
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Aldershot private companies buy other companies all the time, so why shouldn’t a government?

They also have the advantage that they could carry out investment at much lower borrowing rates going forward.

I think a well run public industry could definitely do better than some of the way current monopolies are being run.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:42 PM
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Aldershot private companies buy other companies all the time, so why shouldn’t a government?

They also have the advantage that they could carry out investment at much lower borrowing rates going forward.

I think a well run public industry could definitely do better than some of the way current monopolies are being run.
Why not do it with something new instead of buying something that is already there though. Alders often alludes to this. We have a rail service - buying it comes with a huge cost and little return.

Build green energy farms instead keep them as assets providing a healthy return.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:51 PM
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The more I think about the ramifications of a wealth tax based on rent value the more I think some plonker thought it sounded good but no one has analysed it and discovered it’s really really stupid. Somehow it has been made policy without any critical thought.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:55 PM
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The more I think about the ramifications of a wealth tax based on rent value the more I think some plonker thought it sounded good but no one has analysed it and discovered it’s really really stupid. Somehow it has been made policy without any critical thought.
Don't think it is policy, is it? Just what I am suggesting.

And I think it would work well. reduce property prices and rentals too, if you build some houses as well.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:56 PM
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Tories aren't doing PFI anymore but the SNP are and Mayor Khan wants to for the Silverton tunnel.
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:58 PM
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He's a ****. End thread..
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Old 15-06-2019, 05:58 PM
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They also have the advantage that they could carry out investment at much lower borrowing rates going forward.
.
Hmm. You can imagine the debates; shall we invest more in the railways or in the NHS. Somehow such things always emerge as binary choices.
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