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  #41  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
Lots of people say they prefer coalitions, but the evidence of how the public has punished the Lib Dems for going into coalition with the Conservatives suggests the reality is rather different.
Which is the point i have been making.

It was Lib Dem policy to raise the rate of the personal allowance, and they allowed the Tories to take responsibility for it. That was their major policy that they wanted and they gave up student fees, as well as a lot more to prioritise that.

Millions have benefited from it.

I do not have a problem with coalition government per se (depends who the partners are) but that was actually quite a good coalition i thought, but the junior partner has been destroyed by it.

The same is happening in Germany at the moment with the SDP struggling having been the junior partner to the CDU for years.
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  #42  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you (and PR was what the LD's really wanted, but AV was the best they could get on the referendum). Not sure about your final point, though - there's no need to vote tactically under AV. (Eg you support Labour but live in a Tory/LD marginal and don't want the Tories in. Currently, you might feel forced to vote tactically for the Lib Dems. Under AV, you vote Labour 1, Lib Dems 2.)
Think most people with the issue don't live in marginals, they live in safe seats and don't feel their vote counts when it does as much as everyone else in the area.

That issue is far more about having a parliamentary system that revolves around our MP's representing a defined area and, in theory, looking after the needs and issues of that area.

Before moving to PR you have to decide you want to ditch that system.
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  #43  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you (and PR was what the LD's really wanted, but AV was the best they could get on the referendum). Not sure about your final point, though - there's no need to vote tactically under AV. (Eg you support Labour but live in a Tory/LD marginal and don't want the Tories in. Currently, you might feel forced to vote tactically for the Lib Dems. Under AV, you vote Labour 1, Lib Dems 2.)
Your example makes the point for me. You want your vote to count for Labour, but because you're not in the right constituency you know your first vote won't count and it's your 2nd choice that will be effective.

Under PR it's one vote and that counts unless you vote for a fringe group that doesn't get enough support to elect a single MP.
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  #44  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:42 AM
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When over 60% of the electorate consistently face being governed by a party they didn’t vote for it suggests to me that the current system is long past it’s sell by date. PR has its faults but it is much more representative of the mosaic of the country’s political views than the current system.
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  #45  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Which is the point i have been making.

It was Lib Dem policy to raise the rate of the personal allowance, and they allowed the Tories to take responsibility for it. That was their major policy that they wanted and they gave up student fees, as well as a lot more to prioritise that.

Millions have benefited from it.

I do not have a problem with coalition government per se (depends who the partners are) but that was actually quite a good coalition i thought, but the junior partner has been destroyed by it.

The same is happening in Germany at the moment with the SDP struggling having been the junior partner to the CDU for years.
Yes, agreed. You can add the pupil premium to the list of things the Lib Dems insisted on but the Tories now claim as their own.

[Edit - I also agree with you on the other benefits of the constituency system; and, indeed, of the House of Lords.]
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  #46  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:47 AM
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I agree. Much prefer consensus over endless point scoring confrontation.
I also think we should move parliament to a modern building in the Midlands and leave the Palace of Westminster to the tourists.
Another policy I agree with. Things are far too London centric.

If you cut down the number of MPs it wouldn't be too onerous to move the parliament (or open bids for moving it) every 10-20 years.
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  #47  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Think most people with the issue don't live in marginals, they live in safe seats and don't feel their vote counts when it does as much as everyone else in the area.

That issue is far more about having a parliamentary system that revolves around our MP's representing a defined area and, in theory, looking after the needs and issues of that area.

Before moving to PR you have to decide you want to ditch that system.
I think that the need for local representation in that manner has been made redundant thanks to the internet.

Groups that want representation will tend to group together via the internet and do so on a national level. People don't need a local MP to carry their gripe to parliament any more.

Local policy and decisions would have to be devolved to local councils, while national decisions would be made by a more diverse and representative coalition.
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  #48  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
Lots of people say they prefer coalitions, but the evidence of how the public has punished the Lib Dems for going into coalition with the Conservatives suggests the reality is rather different.
I think that was a quirk of having a coalition for the first time in a long time, and with the junior party getting out manoeuvred politically.

I would expect with PR that you end up with a fracturing of the big parties into smaller groups as you no longer need to attach yourself to one of the big two parties to become electable.

With that you end up with a much more diverse coalition governing, and it's harder for any one group to have the blame heaped upon them.
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  #49  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by stamford triumph View Post
When over 60% of the electorate consistently face being governed by a party they didnít vote for it suggests to me that the current system is long past itís sell by date. PR has its faults but it is much more representative of the mosaic of the countryís political views than the current system.
You can't include people that don't give a shit in your figures. Only people that actually want to vote count.
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  #50  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stamford triumph View Post
When over 60% of the electorate consistently face being governed by a party they didnít vote for it suggests to me that the current system is long past itís sell by date. PR has its faults but it is much more representative of the mosaic of the countryís political views than the current system.
Its under 60% but under PR you end up being governed by a coalition no-one voted for.

You might have voted for a party based on a particular issue which they then trade away in negotiations (see student fees). How is that any better?
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  #51  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:27 AM
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Another policy I agree with. Things are far too London centric.

If you cut down the number of MPs it wouldn't be too onerous to move the parliament (or open bids for moving it) every 10-20 years.
Buildings are costly. To build and maintain. To move parliament every 10-20 years would be impractical.

With the issues facing the Palace of Westminster at the moment now is a good time to decide where Parliament should be for the long term. The questions would then be what happens to the Palace of Westminster? Also needs to be considered that if you move Parliament it is not 650 MPs you move, you will probably move hundreds of thousands of jobs out of London. That may or may not be a good thing.
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  #52  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:28 AM
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I think that the need for local representation in that manner has been made redundant thanks to the internet.

Groups that want representation will tend to group together via the internet and do so on a national level. People don't need a local MP to carry their gripe to parliament any more.

Local policy and decisions would have to be devolved to local councils, while national decisions would be made by a more diverse and representative coalition.
Have you ever attended and MPs surgery or tried to book into one? Have you ever met you r MP in person about local issues? The internet does not seem to have made them redundant.
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  #53  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Have you ever attended and MPs surgery or tried to book into one? Have you ever met you r MP in person about local issues? The internet does not seem to have made them redundant.
Much that I hate agreeing with GG on a politics (or any other) forum, this is right. Representing their constituents is a massively important role of MPs.
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  #54  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:51 AM
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Have you ever attended and MPs surgery or tried to book into one? Have you ever met you r MP in person about local issues? The internet does not seem to have made them redundant.
Our EU elections combine regional representation with PR.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to evolve that to ensure there is an MP allocated to a specific area
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  #55  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:27 PM
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Our EU elections combine regional representation with PR.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to evolve that to ensure there is an MP allocated to a specific area
I completely disagree. My MEP is so for a huge area, i have never met them, i have never corresponded with they, i have no need for them.

They cannot in any way be compared to my MP who i have met and have corresponded with.
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  #56  
Old 09-01-2019, 12:57 PM
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Have you ever attended and MPs surgery or tried to book into one? Have you ever met you r MP in person about local issues? The internet does not seem to have made them redundant.
Yes I have. MPs still do local representation because that's part of their role, but I think that changes in society mean that it's become a lot less effective than it could now be.

To explain - when the current democratic model was formed ~300 years ago, it worked as a representation of local interests, and worked because constituencies were fairly uniform in their makeup. If you lived out in the countryside you would likely be dependent on the land in some way and knew or cared little about what happened more than a few miles around where you lived and worked.

Modern society has become a lot more complex and most constituencies are a patchwork of cultures and professions. If you live isolated in the countryside you could as easily be an international banker as a farmer. We all have interest and opinion in many minor national and global events.

I think you can get a better, more representative viewpoint of the general populace using PR to handle national policy, and empower local councils to handle local issues. Of course if something needs raising to a national level then the council would have a way to push it to parliament for discussion/debate.
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  #57  
Old 09-01-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Random* View Post
Yes I have. MPs still do local representation because that's part of their role, but I think that changes in society mean that it's become a lot less effective than it could now be.

To explain - when the current democratic model was formed ~300 years ago, it worked as a representation of local interests, and worked because constituencies were fairly uniform in their makeup. If you lived out in the countryside you would likely be dependent on the land in some way and knew or cared little about what happened more than a few miles around where you lived and worked.

Modern society has become a lot more complex and most constituencies are a patchwork of cultures and professions. If you live isolated in the countryside you could as easily be an international banker as a farmer. We all have interest and opinion in many minor national and global events.

I think you can get a better, more representative viewpoint of the general populace using PR to handle national policy, and empower local councils to handle local issues. Of course if something needs raising to a national level then the council would have a way to push it to parliament for discussion/debate.
That is adding in a whole new level of Government in there with Councils able to push issues to a national level.
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  #58  
Old 09-01-2019, 01:32 PM
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Parliamentary reform is happening at the moment!

Points of Order are lasting almost as long as PMQ's it is almost Questions of the Speaker!

He is not budging but there is a lot of weight being thrown behind the claims that he has acted outside his role and changed Parliamentary procedures.
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:57 PM
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That is adding in a whole new level of Government in there with Councils able to push issues to a national level.
No, it's devolving the responsibility from the MPs to the local councils. I'd also want to reduce parliamentary numbers as a result too.
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Old 09-01-2019, 02:07 PM
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Funny thing about devolution, is that everyone says they support it. And then they complain about 'postcode lotteries' in the provision of services.
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