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  #181  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatleboy View Post
I saw the tackle on the night, and knew it was going to be either yellow or red. I waited before commenting on here , until I had seen the slow motion analysis. The still picture on here shows that Sakho was rushing in to get the ball, at pace, foot at opponents knee height. His rear foot was not on the ground. It was a lunging challenge and he had lost control of his body and made contact with the player. Put that lot together and it was a red card offence. The referee was well positioned and had a clear view. It doesn't matter whether there was any intent to hurt the opponent in the challenge made ( I am sure that there wasn't). A dangerous challenge with excessive force and a 3 match ban I am afraid. No point in appealing it either.
that confirms it, not a foul
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  #182  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:22 PM
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that confirms it, not a foul
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  #183  
Old 05-12-2019, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sick Bucket View Post
It's harsh on Sakho for sure, no doubt it's all been said already but he's watching the ball the whole time and I really don't think there is any intention to hurt Smith at all, just went in hard. That said he does catch him and if that had been a Bournemouth player making the same tackle on Wilf we'd have all been screaming for a red.

As someone just said above the 3 match bans is a bit unfair, there really should be a distinction between intentional fouls or not.
Agree.

Re Sakho generally: he has this terrible habit of launching his whole body whether it be headers, tackles or clearances. It stacks the odds that there will be a fk because it is scary looking, but it also risks his own injury because stopping that momentum is tough on his body. Add to that latter risk is he is very often off balance as if he has a lack of coordination. So all of his weight appears on the wrong foot and he stretches, pulling on his joints and muscles. I did read somewhere that he had some serious medical problems in his younger years (not sure if this is true/accurate) and had to relearn how to walk? Not sure if this is a factor but care because it may be boll**

Anyway, we won’t need to worry re his fitness for 3 games -doh
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  #184  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by palacemetros View Post
I think what has to be taken into consideration (but hasn't) is that Smith's knee was hardly stationary. He was himself hurtling forwards with both feet off the ground. Sakho was committed to the clearance, Smith was committed to blocking it.
Indeed. Smith was perhaps more "reckless" than Sakho by putting himself in the way of the clearance follow through, challenging for a ball he was never going to win.
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  #185  
Old 05-12-2019, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Beatleboy View Post
I saw the tackle on the night, and knew it was going to be either yellow or red. I waited before commenting on here , until I had seen the slow motion analysis. The still picture on here shows that Sakho was rushing in to get the ball, at pace, foot at opponents knee height. His rear foot was not on the ground. It was a lunging challenge and he had lost control of his body and made contact with the player. Put that lot together and it was a red card offence. The referee was well positioned and had a clear view. It doesn't matter whether there was any intent to hurt the opponent in the challenge made ( I am sure that there wasn't). A dangerous challenge with excessive force and a 3 match ban I am afraid. No point in appealing it either.
Serious question Beatleboy: What level did you get to before giving up on playing football and deciding to take up officiating?

Something tells me you stopped before you were ten.
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  #186  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CP Satellite View Post
Serious question Beatleboy: What level did you get to before giving up on playing football and deciding to take up officiating?

Something tells me you stopped before you were ten.
I played for my junior school team, played a lot of playground football at senior school. Joined a local club when I was 18, but, unfortunately, had a medical condition ( diagnosed that my body was making too much adrenaline) that meant that I got a blinding migraine ( NOT just a headache) after every game - sometimes i was sick as well. I was told that there was nothing they/I could do about it and I could either play on and suffer each time, or pack up. I stopped playing for some years, as there isn't much fun feeling ill after every single game. I played 5 a sides years later at work. Got into football again as a referee because my son's Little League needed officials. I went from refereeing kids games to men's football in a few years and then got all my promotions as a referee and became a Senior County Referee. There you go - a potted history!
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  #187  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
I understand and agree with that in the context of today’s rules etc. The 3 match ban feels OTT in that makes sense if someone has flattened someone violently in a challenge but less so when it is accidental. But the rules don’t distinguish between them and so he is stuck with it.

So can I repeat an earlier question.

1) - if a keeper comes for a cross and punches and clobbers a forward with his follow through because he misses the ball (I.e. by definition out of control) is that a red?

2) - if a forward and a defender both stretch for a whipped cross with feet off the ground to tap it in/ clear it and clatter - is it a sending off of both one or nine?

Genuine question, not trying to catch anyone out.
.
On 1) . The simple answer is yes. However, if it was only that easy for a referee! A goalkeeper's normal position is different from an outfield player. Goalkeepers are expected to dive at the feet of other players, or come out to punch/catch/dive at the ball whilst players are running towards them or the goal. On that basis it can be argued that keepers are often out of control when challenging for the ball. A referee still has to decide if they are playing in a dangerous manner, or use excessive force, if they collide with a player.

On 2) . I am not sure that there is a simple answer to that one. The referee would have to decide if it was just a collision between two players and award nothing, or if both are flattened, may stop play immediately, get treatment for the players and then award a dropped ball. The referee may decide that one or the other has committed the more serious offence, and could penalise that player. This may result in issuing that player with a yellow or red card.

It is interesting to note on this that referees now have to judge whether a foul by a defender ( which can include the goalkeeper) on an attacking player in the penalty area, which denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity), was made as a genuine attempt to play the ball. If it was, then a yellow card caution would be given. If there was no genuine attempt ( e.g. a player was pulled back without an attempt to play the ball), a red card would be shown and the offending player sent off.
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  #188  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:25 AM
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I haven't seen any replays of Sakho's challenge. Is it available to see anywhere online?
I noticed in the Chelsea/Villa game the AV defender made made a challenge on a Chelsea player round about chest height with both feet off the ground (I think) and the ref never blew for a foul!
In live time, I thought Sakho was focused on playing the ball. Did Smith not charge in recklessly?
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  #189  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by alf View Post
I haven't seen any replays of Sakho's challenge. Is it available to see anywhere online?
I noticed in the Chelsea/Villa game the AV defender made made a challenge on a Chelsea player round about chest height with both feet off the ground (I think) and the ref never blew for a foul!
In live time, I thought Sakho was focused on playing the ball. Did Smith not charge in recklessly?
Official site in the extended highlights . Wasn’t even a yellow ffs.
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  #190  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:43 AM
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Official site in the extended highlights . Wasn’t even a yellow ffs.



I don't know what incident you were watching then? If the club feels that it wasn't even a yellow - I am sure that they will appeal it immediately - I bet that they won't waste their time, and for good reason - it was a clear red.
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  #191  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:52 AM
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Thought from watching it on tv it was a pretty clear red tbh. also thought that a few years ago it would have been a brilliant wholehearted challenge. But the game has moved on. No argument about the card from me.
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  #192  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatleboy View Post
On 1) . The simple answer is yes. However, if it was only that easy for a referee! A goalkeeper's normal position is different from an outfield player. Goalkeepers are expected to dive at the feet of other players, or come out to punch/catch/dive at the ball whilst players are running towards them or the goal. On that basis it can be argued that keepers are often out of control when challenging for the ball. A referee still has to decide if they are playing in a dangerous manner, or use excessive force, if they collide with a player.

On 2) . I am not sure that there is a simple answer to that one. The referee would have to decide if it was just a collision between two players and award nothing, or if both are flattened, may stop play immediately, get treatment for the players and then award a dropped ball. The referee may decide that one or the other has committed the more serious offence, and could penalise that player. This may result in issuing that player with a yellow or red card.

It is interesting to note on this that referees now have to judge whether a foul by a defender ( which can include the goalkeeper) on an attacking player in the penalty area, which denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity), was made as a genuine attempt to play the ball. If it was, then a yellow card caution would be given. If there was no genuine attempt ( e.g. a player was pulled back without an attempt to play the ball), a red card would be shown and the offending player sent off.
You forgot...depends who he is playing for.....top 6 no card no fouls (watch Virgil VD for evidence)....all the rest, card and possible sending off
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  #193  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:04 AM
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It wasn’t a clear red at all. But it was a needless challenge to make and he gave Taylor the chance to make the decision he was desperate to make. He’s an awful ref.

But my worry about Sakho is that he’s becoming increasingly unreliable when we need him on the pitch.
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  #194  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Beatleboy View Post
On 1) . The simple answer is yes. However, if it was only that easy for a referee! A goalkeeper's normal position is different from an outfield player. Goalkeepers are expected to dive at the feet of other players, or come out to punch/catch/dive at the ball whilst players are running towards them or the goal. On that basis it can be argued that keepers are often out of control when challenging for the ball. A referee still has to decide if they are playing in a dangerous manner, or use excessive force, if they collide with a player.

On 2) . I am not sure that there is a simple answer to that one. The referee would have to decide if it was just a collision between two players and award nothing, or if both are flattened, may stop play immediately, get treatment for the players and then award a dropped ball. The referee may decide that one or the other has committed the more serious offence, and could penalise that player. This may result in issuing that player with a yellow or red card.

It is interesting to note on this that referees now have to judge whether a foul by a defender ( which can include the goalkeeper) on an attacking player in the penalty area, which denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity), was made as a genuine attempt to play the ball. If it was, then a yellow card caution would be given. If there was no genuine attempt ( e.g. a player was pulled back without an attempt to play the ball), a red card would be shown and the offending player sent off.
Thanks - it makes sense and the challenge is getting consistency, especially on the first one, where I suspect there will be few instances that actually see the red these days.

I don't advocate major changes but still think that the very nature of the rules and perhaps by definition, the game mean that there are constant demands for subjective interpretation. You offer one above. I suspect Sakho's even, seen from a different angle and context/position on the pitch and a different ref even could see a yellow or maybe even less.

If we keep pursuing perfection - which to me seems the goal lauded by pundits at least, then we risk ruining what we have. Fans may have a moan down the pub but that is part of the game too. Pundits have to chat about something and they have more than most forced the introduction of VAR and I suspect the changing interpretation of what is a yellow or red. Some of that has been healthy as scything players down and getting a frown and a wagging finger was getting dangerous but let's leave perfection where it should be, as a talking point.
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  #195  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:27 AM
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Sakho moves and looks like a phsyco. Had Tomkins gracefully cleared the ball away at knee height in exactly the same manner the ref wouldn't have even blown. The Bournemouth player wasn't getting anywhere near that ball in a million years.
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  #196  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:39 AM
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Not even a foul, can't believe so many think it was a red but that is what makes the game interesting.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:02 AM
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On the night sitting in the main stand it wasn’t a sending off. Seeing the replay I can see why he was given his marching orders.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:07 AM
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If Lerma made that tackle on Wilf I doubt anyone would think it wasn't a red.
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  #199  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:08 AM
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If Lerma made that tackle on Wilf I doubt anyone would think it wasn't a red.
But I also doubt that Taylor would have given it
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:18 AM
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But I also doubt that Taylor would have given it
Ha, you're not wrong there!
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