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  #1  
Old 11-02-2019, 12:22 PM
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4-4-2 at home please

We created some real chances in the 2nd half vs West Ham. Whilst we have created some good chances in most games, this was for me one of the first home games when we've created so many clear cut opportunities. However the first half was poor. We put ourselves on the back foot with such a negative formation. The set-up is all wrong. We are at home, and it's winnable.

We should play with 2 strikers and Wilf wide midfield in the home games. Also we should play Max Meyer in the home games because we are going to have more possession and we need the extra passing and technical ability. He made a big difference in just 10 minutes against West Ham. I'm all for the solid defensive formation of 4-3-3 when we are away from home or playing the top sides at home. (In fact I'd go 4-4-2 with a target man and Zaha up front, but a defensively solid midfield of 4 in behind but that's for another thread.) Yes, we need to be organised away from home especially. But the mindset is wrong for home games. We are a very good side and we start the first half hoping to get in at half time 0-0. It's way too negative.

I'd rather lose the same number of games but at least give it a go. No coincidence that we won against Fulham with a more attacking 4-4-2 and scraped to a 1-1 draw against West Ham with the 4-3-3. Just saying.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:25 PM
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Agreed

Fed up with giving mid to lower table visiting teams the initiative, about time we put them on the back foot from the start and played like a home team should, perhaps then this wretched home form would improve.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by glaziers fan View Post
We created some real chances in the 2nd half vs West Ham. Whilst we have created some good chances in most games, this was for me one of the first home games when we've created so many clear cut opportunities. However the first half was poor. We put ourselves on the back foot with such a negative formation. The set-up is all wrong. We are at home, and it's winnable.

We should play with 2 strikers and Wilf wide midfield in the home games. Also we should play Max Meyer in the home games because we are going to have more possession and we need the extra passing and technical ability. He made a big difference in just 10 minutes against West Ham. I'm all for the solid defensive formation of 4-3-3 when we are away from home or playing the top sides at home. (In fact I'd go 4-4-2 with a target man and Zaha up front, but a defensively solid midfield of 4 in behind but that's for another thread.) Yes, we need to be organised away from home especially. But the mindset is wrong for home games. We are a very good side and we start the first half hoping to get in at half time 0-0. It's way too negative.

I'd rather lose the same number of games but at least give it a go. No coincidence that we won against Fulham with a more attacking 4-4-2 and scraped to a 1-1 draw against West Ham with the 4-3-3. Just saying.
Are you suggesting we play two strikers, Wilf, Andros, and Meyer?

That would leave us horribly unbalanced. I would play Meyer in place of one striker and have Kouyate and Luka in the middle.
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:38 PM
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Its a tricky question, I think 442 would be great but agree might leave us unbalanced.

Maybe 4 2 3 1 is a good alternative, even though many say Meyer isnt suited for that CAM role and it may well be true
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Old 11-02-2019, 12:44 PM
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I think it's more about tactics and mindset than it is about the formation. In the first half, everything we did was slow and ponderous. When we got the ball to Wilf, he was largely standing still and looking to play a 5 year pass to a teammate, whereas in the second half he got the ball and ran at them.

It seems to me that the team is sent out to be slow, deliberate and cautious. Then, when chasing the game our players are suddenly trusted to be instinctive and to play with real pace, which are exactly the attributes that we possess more than any side outside of the big 6. When the shackles come off we look a good side.

I think we need to find a balance. Obviously we can't go at teams gung-ho, but we can surely try to break forwards with pace and accept that will sometimes mean that we lose the ball in the final third.

I would also like us to swap the two wide men more often. Neither of them really like getting early crosses over, because they both want to get back onto their stronger foot. It must be infuriating for Benteke. If he is going to play up front, we need to see more of Townsend on the left and Wilf on the right. You only need to see Benteke's goal at Bournemouth a couple of seasons ago to see how that could work.

As for the formation, I'm not convinced that we can play Meyer as one of a midfield two with Zaha, Townsend and two strikers on the pitch. We either need to play 442 with Luka and Kouyate in the middle or 433 with Meyer behind the front man.

Whatever the formation though, let's start the home games with a bit more pace and intent.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Raschic Ken View Post
I think it's more about tactics and mindset than it is about the formation. In the first half, everything we did was slow and ponderous. When we got the ball to Wilf, he was largely standing still and looking to play a 5 year pass to a teammate, whereas in the second half he got the ball and ran at them.

It seems to me that the team is sent out to be slow, deliberate and cautious. Then, when chasing the game our players are suddenly trusted to be instinctive and to play with real pace, which are exactly the attributes that we possess more than any side outside of the big 6. When the shackles come off we look a good side.

I think we need to find a balance. Obviously we can't go at teams gung-ho, but we can surely try to break forwards with pace and accept that will sometimes mean that we lose the ball in the final third.

I would also like us to swap the two wide men more often. Neither of them really like getting early crosses over, because they both want to get back onto their stronger foot. It must be infuriating for Benteke. If he is going to play up front, we need to see more of Townsend on the left and Wilf on the right. You only need to see Benteke's goal at Bournemouth a couple of seasons ago to see how that could work.

As for the formation, I'm not convinced that we can play Meyer as one of a midfield two with Zaha, Townsend and two strikers on the pitch. We either need to play 442 with Luka and Kouyate in the middle or 433 with Meyer behind the front man.

Whatever the formation though, let's start the home games with a bit more pace and intent.
Meyer is at his best coming on after 60 minutes, when the game is opening up. I can’t see him playing as a midfield 2 either. He just doesn’t appear strong enough in the tackle and Roy is always keen to play his way, keeping it tight in the first half.
I think we may see an improved Meyer next season, when he has adapted to the Premier more.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Palacefan99 View Post
Are you suggesting we play two strikers, Wilf, Andros, and Meyer?

That would leave us horribly unbalanced. I would play Meyer in place of one striker and have Kouyate and Luka in the middle.
That's what I am suggesting, yes.

Meyer is not a No10, he's McArthur with more technical ability so I wouldn't play him that far forward. You wouldn't play McArthur at No10 would you? Andros is a very defensively solid wide player who needs to drop deeper. PVA needs to push into midfield to release Wilf to go further forward. if it's too attacking you could always bring in Kouyate or Schlupp for Meyer:

Townsend----------Milivojevic--------Kouyate/Schlupp/McArthur/Meyer---------Zaha
---------------------Batshuayi---------Benteke--------------------------------


Attack down our left with PVA pushing up. Townsend and AWB need to stay back and tuck in to protect us defensively. Batshuayi would need to run the right hand channel. It's solid enough IMHO.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Palacefan99 View Post
Are you suggesting we play two strikers, Wilf, Andros, and Meyer?

That would leave us horribly unbalanced. I would play Meyer in place of one striker and have Kouyate and Luka in the middle.
Agree with this tbh. In an ideal world, Meyer in midfield with Luka and Kouyate/Schlupp/Macca (depending on the opponent).
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:37 PM
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Its a tricky question, I think 442 would be great but agree might leave us unbalanced.

Maybe 4 2 3 1 is a good alternative, even though many say Meyer isnt suited for that CAM role and it may well be true
He looked like a great CAM on Saturday. He has the composure and ability to retain the ball playing deeper, but seems to get bullied a bit.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:38 PM
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4-4-2 with Benteke and Batshuayi and Meyer in central midfield sees us overrun in midfield and Wilf not able to have maximum impact because he's too busy defending.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:39 PM
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Agree with this tbh. In an ideal world, Meyer in midfield with Luka and Kouyate/Schlupp/Macca (depending on the opponent).
I'd start with the 4-4-2 with Wilf and Andros wide midfield, but maybe also start with 2 defensive minded centre mids. Then bring on meyer after 60 mins if we are in control of the game.

The main thing is I would definitely play 2 strikers (Benteke and Batshuayi) together in every home game except vs Man City this season. Benteke needs the strike partner and Batshuayi probably needs Benteke also. Especially in games where there is limited space (at home).
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:39 PM
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He looked like a great CAM on Saturday. He has the composure and ability to retain the ball playing deeper, but seems to get bullied a bit.
I mean he has pedigree of successfully playing CAM and deeper, although deeper far more recently.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:42 PM
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4-4-2 with Benteke and Batshuayi and Meyer in central midfield sees us overrun in midfield and Wilf not able to have maximum impact because he's too busy defending.
Not if we have the ball and the opposition have no intention of seriously attacking us. Sure, play a defensive mid instead of Meyer if it's 50/50 in terms of possession but we need the dual striker threat in home games where the opposition are parking the bus.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:45 PM
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Not if we have the ball and the opposition have no intention of seriously attacking us. Sure, play a defensive mid instead of Meyer if it's 50/50 in terms of possession but we need the dual striker threat in home games where the opposition are parking the bus.
You used Saturday's match as an example in your opening post, but West Ham didn't park the bus in the first half.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:54 PM
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You used Saturday's match as an example in your opening post, but West Ham didn't park the bus in the first half.
True! However we looked unbalanced in the 4-3-3 with Benteke isolated in any case. Batshuayi should start home games if we are going to go 4-3-3, although I hope we don't. Benteke needs more options close by.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:56 PM
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I think our best starting attack now consists of Batshuayi up top with Zaha and Townsend either side of him and Meyer in a midfield with Luka and Kouyate operating together in that flexible 433/451 formation we’ve seen from Roy in recent weeks. Fast, dynamic and technical players who will really make the opposition feel uncomfortable. I just do not see us being able to accommodate Benteke AND Batshuayi in the same eleven without some major formation changes.

Maybe a shift to a 4312 with AWB and PvA providing the width, Luka/Kouyate/McArthur behind Zaha in a kind of free role to move across the park and Benteke/Batshuayi operating together. But that would require dropping Townsend and I just can’t see that happening.

Likewise as others have said, 442 leaves us too open centrally and nullifies Wilf by asking him to do too much defending without the extra man in midfield.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:00 PM
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I would not say that this is more to do with being home or away but, more who we are playing. This season we have struggled against teams who keep 11 men behind the ball and look to break on us to score, or, do not look to score at all. When playing teams below us/similar to us, I would say 4-4-2 with two of Luka/Kouyate/McArthur/Meyer would be fine. But, against teams where we might not have the ball as much we need to be playing 4-3-3 with Townsend/Zaha as wide strikers rather than midfielders who need to defend.

The only way that Meyer starts in the Premier League if Roy wants it is to go 4-2-3-1 with Andros/Max/Wilf as the three behind MB or CB up top.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:12 PM
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We created some real chances in the 2nd half vs West Ham. Whilst we have created some good chances in most games, this was for me one of the first home games when we've created so many clear cut opportunities. However the first half was poor. We put ourselves on the back foot with such a negative formation. The set-up is all wrong. We are at home, and it's winnable.

We should play with 2 strikers and Wilf wide midfield in the home games. Also we should play Max Meyer in the home games because we are going to have more possession and we need the extra passing and technical ability. He made a big difference in just 10 minutes against West Ham. I'm all for the solid defensive formation of 4-3-3 when we are away from home or playing the top sides at home. (In fact I'd go 4-4-2 with a target man and Zaha up front, but a defensively solid midfield of 4 in behind but that's for another thread.) Yes, we need to be organised away from home especially. But the mindset is wrong for home games. We are a very good side and we start the first half hoping to get in at half time 0-0. It's way too negative.

I'd rather lose the same number of games but at least give it a go. No coincidence that we won against Fulham with a more attacking 4-4-2 and scraped to a 1-1 draw against West Ham with the 4-3-3. Just saying.
Its not the formation that is the issue.

You assume that the 4-4-2 would have Townsend and Zaha out wide, but certainly with Kouyate out a midfield 2 of Luke and McArthur/Schluup would be massively overrun. Roy would more likely play zaha up top to put grafters in teh midfield.

4-3-3 with Zaha, Meyer, and Townsend behind Benteke/Batshuayi would be a different proposition to a the team played on Saturday.

Its as much issues with personnel as formation.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:14 PM
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The Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietThe Vicar came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowlesyUCLA View Post
I think our best starting attack now consists of Batshuayi up top with Zaha and Townsend either side of him and Meyer in a midfield with Luka and Kouyate operating together in that flexible 433/451 formation we’ve seen from Roy in recent weeks. Fast, dynamic and technical players who will really make the opposition feel uncomfortable.
Spot on
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:32 PM
LuieJack LuieJack is offline
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LuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLuieJack came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
The most important thing and our main priority for now should be safety before we start talking about playing attacking formations, are we forgeting currently we sit just THREE points above the drop zone with a pack of clubs on our tail. Like most I also would love to see us be brave and play expansive football, but our biggest issue and preventing us doing so is not having a goal scoring Centre Forward which would allow more flexibility to our formation, hopefully with Batshuayi he will now give us that option, but also allow Roy into playing a true Front Three with WZ and AT given more freedom to support Batshuayi.
But we need to keep the solidity in Midfield for now with a midfield Three of Luka, Kouyate and McArthur, and once safe bring Max Meyer into the fold to replace McArthur and give him a freedom midfield role where he can express himself to pick out passes for the Forwards.
For now lets get our priority right first which is safety and then plan ahead, which is what i feel Roy Hodgson is doing but is just not appreciated by some fans.
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