Venezuela

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

See the water supplies being installed did you?

Or is this yet another piece if third-hand information you have accepted as gospel?

Yeap videos were sent back. And people went out there before it got really bad.

You go back to supporting your US backed Stalinist YPG though eh. And your fascist yellow jackets.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

Yes it's a tragedy.
But because of Maduro? Or because of the US and its allies applying sanctions as a means of applying political pressure?

It’s both.

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

What are you taking about? Assad wanted ISIS in place and spent his whole time fighting the FSA who were his real threat. He didn’t attack ISIS as was good for his propaganda.

Russia carpet bombed Syria and propped up Assad’s regime along with Iran.

Spouting the neo-liberal line, yet again.

US and Israel were both more than happy with ISIS in the early days as they kept Assad and Iran occupied.

Notice how many times ISIS have targetted Israel for attack? NEVER. They instead attacked Hammas, Israel's sworn enemy! When will the penny drop?

[CT_Palace]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

True but I very much doubt the coup will make it any better.

.

You have no idea and neither do I. But it would have to be a brutal dictatorship on a par with South American countries during the 70's to be any worse.

No, there's no doubt in my mind and the mind of the many many Venezuelans that I speak to, that whatever the change, Maduro has to go.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

Spouting the neo-liberal line, yet again.

US and Israel were both more than happy with ISIS in the early days as they kept Assad and Iran occupied.

Notice how many times ISIS have targetted Israel for attack? NEVER. They instead attacked Hammas, Israel's sworn enemy! When will the penny drop?

They were all happy with ISIS. Including the imperialist intervention from Russia. Assad didn’t even bother with ISIS he directed nearly everything at the FSA who had all the valuable territory.

The YPG, your Stalinist mates, were happy to lash up with genocidal Assad and have US army bases and airbases all over their territory.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by CT_Palace

You have no idea and neither do I. But it would have to be a brutal dictatorship on a par with South American countries during the 70's to be any worse.

No, there's no doubt in my mind and the mind of the many many Venezuelans that I speak to, that whatever the change, Maduro has to go.

And it could well end up like the 70s. Look at what’s happening with Brazil.

Maduro has to go but not by a US backed coup.

[Stellavista]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

3m Venezuelans have fled since 2014. I have a mate who's family are still there.

It's a humanitarian disaster. And the rest of Latin America is shouldering the burden.

But **** all them, how can we make this all about us and oil eh?

I'm not sure those of us who are talking about the oil see that as the overriding issue, but it is an issue. The US certainly see it as an energy security concern and economic imperative. Maduro is a fruitcake and needs to be ousted, but it's a sensitive process that needs to avoid civil war, which is a very real danger. Venezuela should be one of the wealthiest societies in South America, and the oil revenue needs to benefit the people. Sadly, I doubt that will ever be the case. I too have a lot of dealings with South American countries - mainly Chile, and Brazil, but also Venezuela. The reports I have been receiving are very scary. It needs to be recognised as a failed state - but the likes of Corbyn and Livingstone will never admit they are wrong, because it undermines their entire ideology. I saw this happen with the Communist Party in the UK in the 70's, because there were those who insisted that Stalin was a lovely man, despite all the contrary evidence. Not everyone on the left is blind to the reality and the dangers of ideological positions.

[CT_Palace]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

And it could well end up like the 70s. Look at what’s happening with Brazil.

Maduro has to go but not by a US backed coup.

I do not agree in any way with the politics of Bolsonaro, but there's a long way to go before people are getting thrown out of helicopters.

[Skintagain]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

And it could well end up like the 70s. Look at what’s happening with Brazil.

Maduro has to go but not by a US backed coup.

The only way Maduro will go is if the US make him.
He has the army, they are on the gravy train a civil war will go only one way.

Whether the US back a coup or invade is interesting as Trump nears the end of his presidency and starts to campaign for second term an invasion will be very tempting. It should be easy to tip the balance there.

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by Stellavista

I'm not sure those of us who are talking about the oil see that as the overriding issue, but it is an issue. The US certainly see it as an energy security concern and economic imperative. Maduro is a fruitcake and needs to be ousted, but it's a sensitive process that needs to avoid civil war, which is a very real danger. Venezuela should be one of the wealthiest societies in South America, and the oil revenue needs to benefit the people. Sadly, I doubt that will ever be the case. I too have a lot of dealings with South American countries - mainly Chile, and Brazil, but also Venezuela. The reports I have been receiving are very scary. It needs to be recognised as a failed state - but the likes of Corbyn and Livingstone will never admit they are wrong, because it undermines their entire ideology. I saw this happen with the Communist Party in the UK in the 70's, because there were those who insisted that Stalin was a lovely man, despite all the contrary evidence. Not everyone on the left is blind to the reality and the dangers of ideological positions.

Oil clearly is an issue, since it's almost certainly the main concern of the US who buy so much of it. The US, finally, imposing sanctions on Venezuelan oil is a game changer because Maduro maintains his grip on power through largesse. If he can't keep rewarding the military, he's a busted flush. That the US didn't impose such sanctions before is worthy of a lot of criticism. A cynic would argue that they care less about democracy in South America (a lot of evidence to support that view) than they do about Maduro running the oil industry info the ground and production falling rapidly.

But neither oil nor the US have been the driving force on the demand for free and fair elections. It's the Lima Group countries who have been doing the heavy lifting on this, and many of their members who have been bearing the brunt of the humanitarian crisis. They've been pressuring the US to act not because they want Venezuelan oil but because they want the restoration of democracy in Venezuela.

Colombia, having reached a hard won peace with Farc, is now suffering car bombings they thought were over as the far less significant but more ideological Marxist ELN have gone on the attack. Guess which neighbouring country is supporting the ELN and sheltering their leaders? Given that they are supporting hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans, and they're getting attacked by terrorists funded by Maduro, it's no wonder the Colombians want him gone. And it's just a bit shit when people who couldn't give a shit about the region (not you) come out with lazy "yeah it's all about oil like Iraq" because it's a convenient fit for their worldview

[Raggy]

Originally Posted by cockneyrebel

The YPG, your Stalinist mates, were happy to lash up with genocidal Assad and have US army bases and airbases all over their territory.

They were being slaughtered by the 1000s and their women and children sold as sex slaves, you knob. Why don't you ignore that, while condemning George Galloway for 'sexism'.

The YPG were fighting for their existence and would understandably take any help they could get. Perhaps they couldn't afford the luxury of your PC life-choices.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by CT_Palace

I do not agree in any way with the politics of Bolsonaro, but there's a long way to go before people are getting thrown out of helicopters.

We shall see. He is a fascist.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Skintagain

The only way Maduro will go is if the US make him.
He has the army, they are on the gravy train a civil war will go only one way.

Whether the US back a coup or invade is interesting as Trump nears the end of his presidency and starts to campaign for second term an invasion will be very tempting. It should be easy to tip the balance there.

Invasions have gone really well in the past...

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Raggy

They were being slaughtered by the 1000s and their women and children sold as sex slaves, you knob. Why don't you ignore that, while condemning George Galloway for 'sexism'.

The YPG were fighting for their existence and would understandably take any help they could get. Perhaps they couldn't afford the luxury of your PC life-choices.

Thought you were going?

Firstly who is they? I hope you aren’t conflating the YPG with all Kurds, that would be a tad wrong.

Secondly Assad was carrying out mass slaughter and rape across the country backed by Russian imperialist carpet bombing and Islamist militias from Hezbollah and Iran. The YPG chose to side with Assad against the FSA, the only democratic force. They then got the US to put bases all over their territory.

There were choices and they made vary reactionary ones.

You comment on all kinds of things on here. You probably do very little in real life to back it all up. Given you also back far right yellow jackets you are also probably a right wing troll.

[smileysmith]

Yes, I'm sorry but nobody appears to have addressed the reason Trump etc want Guadido. Its f all to do with democracy and everything to do with Russia's (and China's) support for Maduro.

Heb and Adlers can bang on about democracy all they like. That isn't what this is about.

[cockneyrebel]

Originally Posted by Heb 7:4

Oil clearly is an issue, since it's almost certainly the main concern of the US who buy so much of it. The US, finally, imposing sanctions on Venezuelan oil is a game changer because Maduro maintains his grip on power through largesse. If he can't keep rewarding the military, he's a busted flush. That the US didn't impose such sanctions before is worthy of a lot of criticism. A cynic would argue that they care less about democracy in South America (a lot of evidence to support that view) than they do about Maduro running the oil industry info the ground and production falling rapidly.

But neither oil nor the US have been the driving force on the demand for free and fair elections. It's the Lima Group countries who have been doing the heavy lifting on this, and many of their members who have been bearing the brunt of the humanitarian crisis. They've been pressuring the US to act not because they want Venezuelan oil but because they want the restoration of democracy in Venezuela.

Colombia, having reached a hard won peace with Farc, is now suffering car bombings they thought were over as the far less significant but more ideological Marxist ELN have gone on the attack. Guess which neighbouring country is supporting the ELN and sheltering their leaders? Given that they are supporting hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans, and they're getting attacked by terrorists funded by Maduro, it's no wonder the Colombians want him gone. And it's just a bit shit when people who couldn't give a shit about the region (not you) come out with lazy "yeah it's all about oil like Iraq" because it's a convenient fit for their worldview

Yeah that wonderful government of Colombia. They’ve got no human rights issues have they.

Rights advocates and journalists continue to be targeted with threats and attacks. Despite an Interior Ministry program that assigns protection to human rights defenders, trade unionists, and journalists, the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented the killings of 53 prominent rights advocates and community activists from January through October 2017.

Let’s face it you couldn’t give a shit about the region, you’re a do nothing.

[Adlerhorst]

Originally Posted by smileysmith

Yes, I'm sorry but nobody appears to have addressed the reason Trump etc want Guadido. Its f all to do with democracy and everything to do with Russia's (and China's) support for Maduro.

Heb and Adlers can bang on about democracy all they like. That isn't what this is about.

let’s suppose you are right and Trump is trying to block China, in and of itself is that a bad thing?

I probably have more experience of Chinese international expansion on here than anyone, and if blocking that were Trump’s sole reason for whatever he is doing then totally totally fine with me. China’s expansion is about subservience. And I am sure people will say what’s the difference between subservience to China and subservience to nasty Americans or multinationals but it is an entirely different game.

[smileysmith]

Originally Posted by Adlerhorst

let’s suppose you are right and Trump is trying to block China, in and of itself is that a bad thing?

I probably have more experience of Chinese international expansion on here than anyone, and if blocking that were Trump’s sole reason for whatever he is doing then totally totally fine with me. China’s expansion is about subservience. And I am sure people will say what’s the difference between subservience to China and subservience to nasty Americans or multinationals but it is an entirely different game.

Fine. Although why you are ignoring the point is beyond me.

Still not about democracy is it?

[Heb 7:4]

Originally Posted by smileysmith

Yes, I'm sorry but nobody appears to have addressed the reason Trump etc want Guadido. Its f all to do with democracy and everything to do with Russia's (and China's) support for Maduro.

Heb and Adlers can bang on about democracy all they like. That isn't what this is about.

Your "etc" encompasses an astonishing amount of laziness on your behalf.

Go and write down eveyone you've wrapped up in that. Then look at their individual positions on Maduro and what they've been doing re Venezuela since it descended into dictatorship. Then come back here with your cod theories about how everyone is just following Trump because of China and Russia.

[Nth Kent Eagle]

In the early days the Chavistas seized the oil assets of western majors in the country so you cannot blame people for imposing sanctions - Exxon, Repsol etc. Probably these days the US is concerned about oil but from the other way round. There is a surplus in the western hemisphere right now and they are probably happy that millions of extra barrels a day don't flood the market ruining the viability of shale.