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  #31081  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
I 100% support the rights of the Jewish people to their own homeland where they can feel secure.
Too right. Its the expansion of the state that is the problem.

(Sorry, just reading back to try an establish what I've got myself into commenting on).
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  #31082  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:41 AM
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Most know the difference between bigoted anti semitism and the Palestine Israel conflict ,some will use it as a smoke screen for their institutionalised anti semitic feelings denying anti semitism, excusing it at every opportunity.

Most will "generally" feel sorry for the palestinian people that are being treated terribly.
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  #31083  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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Shouldn’t have taken Heb off ignore. Same old rubbish. Apparently no one here talking about Palestine cared about Assad bombing Palestinians.

But I was actively involved in the Syrian Solidarity Campaign, raised medical aid, and raised and campaigned that specific issue.

I suspect Heb did jack shit, but of course was happy lining his pockets in the Middle East. But apparently feels like he can judge others.
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  #31084  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
It's odd how all the weirdos on here get so impassioned about the Palestine cause (despite clearly having done no research into the politics and history of the region) when they never mentioned whats going on in Tibet, Xinjiang, Rakhine, East Timor and more.

I just wonder what it is about the Jewish state of Israel that causes this level of rage and obsession?
Maybe this will help , it would explain a bit of it anyway given the Labour party is full of Marxists and how they revere his ethics as gospel .
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  #31085  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by legaleagle2 View Post
Some interesting posts,some misconceptions.

The IHRA definitions do not stop criticism of Israel or of the state of Israel as constituted. They say that suggesting Jews have no right to self determination and any homeland of any kind is anti-semitic. To those who say it isn't the question is,why treat Jews differently to other ethnic groups?

The knee jerk associations in the thread between concern about anti-semitism and concerns about zionism are exactly why it is right to be concerned about anti semitism,together with the resuscitation of hoary old tropes.The answer to anti semitism is to try to eradicate it and to have real zerro tolerance,not to link it to zionism, or to anti-zionism

Equally,concerns about anti semitism are no legitimate reason for there not to be critical debate about Israel,the way it is,and its actions.

A 'right of return' is far from unusual in national entities. Have a look at Native American 'homelands' in the USA.Take a look at the right of return presently offered by Spain and Portugal to descendants of Sephardic Jews who were expelled some 600 years ago .

There is little doubt that a Palestinian state and/or a Kurdish state or a greater Armenian state would all (perfectly reasonably) have a right of return.We have it here;its called 'patriality'.

I do hope that any eventual settlement in the Middle East will include demands for a right of return and restoration of property to the c.1 milion Jews ethnically cleansed in the region since 1947 too.They always seem to get overlooked.

I'm no zionist.But I do understand why some are. The real cause of the problem is western christian civilisation which poured sh*t on Jews consistently for no valid reason for centuries.That abuse caused the abused to flee and being f==ked up from abuse and trauma as many abused people are,their children are now screwed up and abuse others.All the time being lectured to by the same people who caused the 'problem' in the first place and wanted it(the Jews) anywhere but on their doorstep.

At the end of the whole horrific mess and the plight of the Palestinians (and their exploitation by some pretty unsavoury 'friends' and representatives),I think Labour's policy is appropriate:viable two-state solution,and I personally back a boycott on Israeli goods originating from the occupied West Bank..
What you’re saying isn’t quite true.

Quote:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Firstly this does clearly combine the right of self determination with Israel. That’s wrong IMO but the definition does this. Secondly given it does this it would mean that saying there should be a right of return for all Palestinians to where they want to go to would make a Jewish majority state impossible in the location is now. That’s not anti Semitic in my view but this definition would say it is.

I also agree with you about Jewish people who were ethnically cleansed in the region. However I would add that there are, in the here and now, millions of Palestinians in refugee camps, the Gazan population kept in prison and massacred on and off, and the West Bank population in an apartheid state.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 12-06-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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  #31086  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Not for my part, but Israel has been going on all my life, unlike Assad.

Sorry, but if you are going to tell me I'm anti-semetic for heavily disliking the way Israel operates, I'm going to argue you're wrong.
Tibet has been going on your whole life. Are you similarly furious with China? Away from Tibet, China are holding over a million Uighar Muslims in camps. It's outrageous, but largely ignored.

I'm a critic of Israel. I've criticised Israel loads of times on here. I want a two state solution, and I don't think the current Israeli government cares about making any steps towards peace.

But the question is whether Israel is treated the same as other countries, or whether the only Jewish state in the world receives a disproportionate response from many. It's hard to argue that it doesn't frankly.
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  #31087  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Given that the question was specifically about the UK and Corbyn, I'm not sure why you're telling me this.

Israel depends on the US for security. It obviously spends the most amount of its political capital on that relationship. And domestically there is a reasonable Jewish electorate.

Neither of those factors are true in the UK.
The UK depends on the US for security just as much as Israel does more so in terms of our nuclear launch systems.
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  #31088  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Tibet has been going on your whole life. Are you similarly furious with China? Away from Tibet, China are holding over a million Uighar Muslims in camps. It's outrageous, but largely ignored.

I'm a critic of Israel. I've criticised Israel loads of times on here. I want a two state solution, and I don't think the current Israeli government cares about making any steps towards peace.

But the question is whether Israel is treated the same as other countries, or whether the only Jewish state in the world receives a disproportionate response from many. It's hard to argue that it doesn't frankly.
The actions of China are NOT ignored they are oft criticised look at what is happening in Hong Kong now.

Seriously if you are trying to make a point use some decent examples.
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Last edited by weltklasse; 12-06-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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  #31089  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:20 PM
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Heb does it again. Whataboutery and hypocrisy.

What’s he done about China? Again jack shit I guess. But others, including me, have don’t campaigning around that terrible regime.

It’s also like those who tried to deflect criticism of South Africa by asking anti apartheid protestors what they had done about other regimes.
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  #31090  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
The UK depends on the US for security just as much as Israel does more so in terms of our nuclear launch systems.
Not sure this is true. France aren't about to invade us if the US stops servicing our nuclear missiles. An invasion from nearby countries is a very real risk in Israel's defence strategy, and the US directly funds their defence in a way it doesn't with us. Though they're our most important supplier.

The US is obviously a massively important part of NATO, and the fact that any attack on the UK would trigger a response from the US is clearly a vital part of our defence.
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  #31091  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Tibet has been going on your whole life. Are you similarly furious with China? Away from Tibet, China are holding over a million Uighar Muslims in camps. It's outrageous, but largely ignored.

I'm a critic of Israel. I've criticised Israel loads of times on here. I want a two state solution, and I don't think the current Israeli government cares about making any steps towards peace.

But the question is whether Israel is treated the same as other countries, or whether the only Jewish state in the world receives a disproportionate response from many. It's hard to argue that it doesn't frankly.
Yes, I'm, equally angry with China about Tibet, although I must admit to not having heard anyone else talking about that since I was travelling though Thaliand.

I think both Israel and Palestine do a lot of awareness raising over and above these other problems.

I suspect that is why it is in the forefront of most people's minds rather than anything else.
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  #31092  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
The actions of China are NOT ignored they are oft criticised look at what is happening in Hong Kong now.

Seriously if you are trying to make a point use some decent examples.
China is often reported on. For a bit. Slightly more attention here if it's Hong Kong. But generally not for long. Public reaction? Usually an overall shrug.

The idea that it has remotely similar treatment to Israel is farcical.
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  #31093  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:33 PM
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Apartheid South Africa got a disproportionate amount of attention. Don’t think that was wrong.

What has Heb done, while judging others, around any of these issues? Post on a bulletin board I suspect.

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  #31094  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Not sure this is true. France aren't about to invade us if the US stops servicing our nuclear missiles. An invasion from nearby countries is a very real risk in Israel's defence strategy, and the US directly funds their defence in a way it doesn't with us. Though they're our most important supplier.

The US is obviously a massively important part of NATO, and the fact that any attack on the UK would trigger a response from the US is clearly a vital part of our defence.
How realistic is the risk of Israel being invaded by the following countries:

Lebanon -Hezbollah is the more likely aggressor here via missile attacks which will largely be covered by Iron Dome
Syria - to busy with internal issues to have the capacity
Jordan - no reason to wouldn't want to loose US funding
Egypt - no reason to wouldn't want to loose US funding

Fairly minimal in reality though i do understand that it is in the politicians and defense industries interests to amp up this risk to the max.

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  #31095  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Apartheid South Africa got a disproportionate amount of attention. Don’t think that was wrong.

What has Heb done, while judging others, around any of these issues? Post on a bulletin board I suspect.
I know you aim is to discredit Heb (same old same old) but it is a discussion bulletin board, everyone is judging, discussing, have an opinion on each others posts...That's how it works ?

innit ?

Do you have to be an activist ?
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  #31096  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
What you’re saying isn’t quite true.



Firstly this does clearly combine the right of self determination with Israel. That’s wrong IMO but the definition does this. Secondly given it does this it would mean that saying there should be a right of return for all Palestinians to where they want to go to would make a Jewish majority state impossible in the location is now. That’s not anti Semitic in my view but this definition would say it is.

I also agree with you about Jewish people who were ethnically cleansed in the region. However I would add that there are, in the here and now, millions of Palestinians in refugee camps, the Gazan population kept in prison and massacred on and off, and the West Bank population in an apartheid state.
In relation to your latter point, the difference is that you and others (perfectly reasonably) refer to the plight of the Palestinians very regularly and the need for a right of return for them.What you and others rarely if ever refer to are the ethnically cleansed Jews and the property seized from them.It doesn't fit into a black and white good guy/bad guy scenario.The only reason that masses of them aren't in camps is that Israel housed them whilst in the lands Palestinians largely ended up min,camps were kept going rather than proper housing as a conscious decision,for political reasons.

In relation to your first point,I think you misunderstand.Read my post again.It is not anti semitic to suggest Palestinians have a right of return,of course it isn't. The state of Israel as constituted is not the same per se as self determination and a homeland. The right to self determination and a homeland applies equally to both Jews and Palestinians.

Regarding apartheid in the West Bank,you still don't know what apartheid as an ideology actually was.It ain't apartheid,it is brutal oppression under occupation but apartheid is lazily bandied around for additional emotive impact,a bit like references in other contexts to fascists.
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  #31097  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
China is often reported on. For a bit. Slightly more attention here if it's Hong Kong. But generally not for long. Public reaction? Usually an overall shrug.

The idea that it has remotely similar treatment to Israel is farcical.
Nice I never suggested the treatment of China and Israel is similar.

There are usually Tibetan protests in Europe when Chinese delegations arrive.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Butler View Post
I know you aim is to discredit Heb (same old same old) but it is a discussion bulletin board, everyone is judging, discussing, have an opinion on each others posts...That's how it works ?

innit ?

Do you have to be an activist ?
How dare you Les. For your information I gave a rousing speech at my union meeting denouncing the imperialist Israelis and their nefarious plots (my comrades carried me out on their shoulders cheering), then did a collection down the pub to continue the struggle, and finally I went to my PLP and shouted at my MP that she's a Mossad agent until she started crying and I was asked to leave.

Now I'm going to accuse anonymous people on here of not doing enough even though it's just a message board.

I'm practically a hero in Palestine. Probably.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:03 PM
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I know you aim is to discredit Heb (same old same old) but it is a discussion bulletin board, everyone is judging, discussing, have an opinion on each others posts...That's how it works ?

innit ?

Do you have to be an activist ?
Indeed everyone is judging and I'm judging Heb.

If people wanna get high and mighty about others not doing enough about other issues (Syria, China etc), and not doing enough around these issues, then I would expect the person making those accusations to do a bit more than just spout off on a message board.

As said a lot of people gave disproportionate time to apartheid South Africa compared to other regimes, I wouldn't use what aboutery to deflect that.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:08 PM
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Nice I never suggested the treatment of China and Israel is similar.

There are usually Tibetan protests in Europe when Chinese delegations arrive.
That's the point though isn't it? That it isn't similar. It's the only Jewish county in the world that attracts a disproportionate level of vitriol.

People have every right to be angry at Netanyahu (or Xi), and to protest them when they visit. But it Israel seems to get an awful lot more attention, and conspiracy theories which are just extensions of long established Anti-Semitic tropes.

We don't hear so much about the Chinese Lobby dictating our media and controlling our politicians. But the All Party Parlimentry Group on China is one of the largest.

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