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  #19841  
Old 20-01-2017, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
That's because New Labour had the same ideology as Thatcher (who praised Blair).

As for the taking over of utilities, it's just as bad if they are UK multinationals or foreign ones.

Trade unions can help, if they aren't shackled by anti-union legislation and members will take action. At the moment strike days are at such a pitiful low that a lot of employers can do as they want.
The Tories are just about to make another big f up. The idea of selling the Green Investment Bank to MacQuarrie who are going to asset strip it is a ridiculous decision. If they have to privatize it then it should be floated so workers can buy shares. I can't believe that this isn't being ripped apart.
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  #19842  
Old 20-01-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by delboy01 View Post
Only if you sign up to the original opt out clause. Which Tony Blair failed to do.
Not true. You can put the brake on even if you did not use the transitional period to apply restrictions on enlargement. And, as you say, restrictions only apply to migrants coming as an employee: you can not stop people from new Members coming if they support themselves.
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  #19843  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Just to get the chronology and causation right: the IMF deal came a couple of years before the winter of discontent. Part of the deal was to cut public sector wages, so bin people and the others were striking against that, damn them all. Later it turned out Healey and/or the treasury deliberately fixed the economic stats so as to make the IMF deal necessary. Democracy went out the window.
I didn't mention the winter of discontent. The insane behaviour of the union's went on for most of the mid to late 70s. Where would BL be now without Red Robbo and his cohorts, it was their objective to take companies down. In BLs case he succeeded and it's failure became inevitable.
I suppose you got the IMF stuff out of the Socialist Worker.In any case an attempt by the Labour party to defraud the IMF doesn't really help whatever case you are trying to make.

That's my last word on the 70s/80s but I do reserve the right to raise the spectre of Thatcher to terrorise the quivering commies of the BBS.
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  #19844  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:13 PM
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So that is us f**ked on the US trade deal then.
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  #19845  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delboy01 View Post
Only if you sign up to the original opt out clause. Which Tony Blair failed to do.

When the EU 8 joined in 2004 Germany went for the full 7 years. The final 2 years being due to the Negative impact it would have on the country. As you state above.

By 2010 the opt out clause was coming to an end anyway (2011).

Most major EU countries signed up to the Opt out clause. However, as someone else pointed out it does not stop the self employed coming over.

Having looked at the unemployment chart had the recession not hit in 2008 then the rise in immigration would not have been so noticeable in terms of employment. From 2004-2008 there was a small increase which took off after 2008.

One reason why people may have got disheartened was that it may have seemed that it was brits being laid off and EU workers kept on.
No you're wrong these clauses can be used now. In fact May didn't when she has Home Secretary. You've been sold a total lie and what's more it will be us who pay for it in lower living standards.
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  #19846  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
Soros is just sore and upset he lost a load over Brexit vote and another load backing Clinton. So I wouldnt value his "expert" opinion one jot. .
Excellent ; you are now claiming to know as much as George Soros.

I'd ask if there was any end to your insanity, but I don't think I could phrase it simply enough.
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  #19847  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
You have answered a point that wasn't made. The point was that was made was that strikes are used to inconvenience the public, which is more than just inconveniencing people. I do think we have seen this in the recent railway strikes, which have been timed to cause the maximum chaos.

A withdrawal of labour should certainly inconvenience employers and is an important right of the workforce. But the public, who are largely innocent? It's harder to justify.
But that will normally be the end result. If the workers are providing a service, which most of them are, then there will be knock on consequences for the general public.

I know Bromley Council library staff have been striking on various occasions over the past 12 months against cuts to library services and privatisation.

Do you really think it inconveniences their employers (Bromley Council)? All they do is deduct a days wages.

Yes it may inconvenience some library users but that is the only way of getting the message across and hopefully some support.
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  #19848  
Old 20-01-2017, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
But that will normally be the end result. If the workers are providing a service, which most of them are, then there will be knock on consequences for the general public.
I don't know how to make my point more clearly. I have already conceded that there will be inconvenience for the public, and that is in the nature of strikes. What I don't understand is planning strikes to cause the maximum chaos for the public. To cause pain.
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  #19849  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
So that is us f**ked on the US trade deal then.
Given that Trump's appointee as Ambassador to UK said that TTIP would be the best start point, then I don't imagine it will hold much joy for the person in the street, no. Even if the Ambo is wrong then all modern FTAs benefit the bigger partner and in the USA's case they will definitely look to allow the Ohio farmers to sell us their bleached chickens and steroid injected beef. That constituency will have more clout in Washington that UK farmers will have in Westminster. We may not have the French Champagne issue e.g. the "cheddar" brand is not protected but Cornish pasty makers may be concerned.

In other sectors, I'll bet that if the EU could not get the US to open its closed shop for government contracts, which in turn protect its steel etc, while we already open ourselves to private contractors from all over the shop, then that will end up looking somewhat lop sided too.

Finally, just about all FTAs now need international arbitration systems to settle disputes and the Yanks don't like the WTO system (in place since the 60s) but what they want instead is going to make dealing with Brussels look like a cake walk - a cake you have and eat at the same time.

But we'll roll over because in the end an FTA with the US will not add as much value to our trade as some people think but it will be one in the eye for the EU.
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  #19850  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
Not true. You can put the brake on even if you did not use the transitional period to apply restrictions on enlargement. And, as you say, restrictions only apply to migrants coming as an employee: you can not stop people from new Members coming if they support themselves.
Link please I've looked and nothing exists
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  #19851  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
No you're wrong these clauses can be used now. In fact May didn't when she has Home Secretary. You've been sold a total lie and what's more it will be us who pay for it in lower living standards.
Looked nothing. Link please.
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  #19852  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I don't know how to make my point more clearly. I have already conceded that there will be inconvenience for the public, and that is in the nature of strikes. What I don't understand is planning strikes to cause the maximum chaos for the public. To cause pain.
If it can be argued that causing pain to the general public, that causes the suffering public in turn, to apply greater pressure on the employers for a settlement, perhaps is more likely to have an effect.

A strike without pain, is a strike without gain.
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  #19853  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
I'm guessing you are too young to know but public services were falling apart due to strike action, there's not much worse than not getting your bin emptied.
And where are we now.

Some councils are proposing to empty your bins once a month.
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  #19854  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
If it can be argued that causing pain to the general public, that causes the suffering public in turn, to apply greater pressure on the employers for a settlement, perhaps more likely to have an effect.

A strike without pain, is a strike without gain.
There is pain and there is utter chaos. Should one deliberately try to engineer the latter?

I don't know many more ways to make the same point.
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  #19855  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
So that is us f**ked on the US trade deal then.
We can buy American. Then they'll need us more than we need them.
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  #19856  
Old 20-01-2017, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
There is pain and there is utter chaos. Should one deliberately try to engineer the latter?

I don't know many more ways to make the same point.
Well chaos is part of the public pain. Of course, if it doesn't translate into the desired effect of employees thinking again at some point, then the latter have to take some reponsibility for the chaos as well. I am sure the employees also feel that the public will turn on the unions too, and apply pressure, so both sides effectively use the public as pawns in the dispute. Just like any conflict, if it goes on too long, attitudes harden and inevitably the public will suffer. To think, however, the disruption and suffering is all the fault of just one of the sides, is just plain wrong
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  #19857  
Old 20-01-2017, 07:28 PM
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I think you maybe find that easier to say if you don't face a four hour commute in weeks when there is a strike day or two.
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  #19858  
Old 20-01-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dave_who_ru View Post
But that will normally be the end result. If the workers are providing a service, which most of them are, then there will be knock on consequences for the general public.

I know Bromley Council library staff have been striking on various occasions over the past 12 months against cuts to library services and privatisation.

Do you really think it inconveniences their employers (Bromley Council)? All they do is deduct a days wages.

Yes it may inconvenience some library users but that is the only way of getting the message across and hopefully some support.
Public sector workers have to stand up for their rights otherwise they will end up like lower paid private sector workers and lose their defined benefit pensions. Actually it's already happening for (the public sector) Post Office staff.
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  #19859  
Old 20-01-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
We can buy American. Then they'll need us more than we need them.
I see you live in Copenhagen. I went there in the early 80s and there were three Burger Kings on that pedestrian strip so it is probably happening. As for London, it is getting more American everyday. Google, Amazon, Facebook, Apple all expanding and earlier in the week I saw that McKinsey's are moving to near where I work. De Gaulle's phrase about Britain being an American aircraft carrier off the coast of Europe has never been truer.
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  #19860  
Old 20-01-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by strolling bones View Post
correct 70/71 was the miners strike and consequent power cuts for everyone. Had a few days off school tho because of it , so I wasnt that bothered then .
Sorry but can we get this right.

There was a miners strike in 1972 which resulted in some power cuts.

There was another in 1974 which resulted in the 3 day week.
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