Brexit

[dim]

Some people need to take a look at themselves. Link between Brexit and slavery and empire......

[Oisin]

I’ve been saying for ages that the three stages of Brexiter rhetoric will be
1) They need us more than we need them (pre A50)
2) They are punishing us for Brexit (during A50 negotiations)
3) Why didn't anyone warn us this could happen? It's your fault (after Brexit)

It’s just dawned on me what stage four will be (after we’ve rejoined EU)

4) Brexit was a good idea in principle it just wasn't implemented properly

[Oisin]

Originally Posted by mik59

I don't know when your chap served in Brussels or what he covered but that is not the view held by EU Permanent Representations that I knew. In my experience, the UK was one of the first ports of call for other countries who wanted to win against a Commission proposal and I can't count how many blocks I saw us successfully lead. There was a study done of the starting negotiating objectives of the 5 main EU economies, and where it all ended up. The UK was top, achieving over 90% of its goals. More broadly, many of those non-EU UK Embassy people that your man admires? They would have served in Brussels in some capacity & at some time.

He wasn't talking about FCO and civil servants in Brussels. He was talking about Ministers turning up for European Council meetings and specifically referring to Cameron's "renegotiation".

[Oisin]

Originally Posted by Biggineagle

Perhaps you are right, Pre Brexit vote, the experts (spit) predicted a recession on its way well before the referendum. I presume the same experts will now admit Brexit has been good for UK and pushed further back any thoughts of a recession for a few years.

Brexperts predicted "they need us more than we need them" and that we'd have a load of trade deals by now with 350 million of additional government revenue per week.

[Biggineagle]

Originally Posted by Oisin

Brexperts predicted "they need us more than we need them" and that we'd have a load of trade deals by now with 350 million of additional government revenue per week.

"We'd have a load of trade deals by now" ? lol. Good one Oisin

[Oisin]

Where did you pick up your Breconomics qualification? A correspondence course from the university of life run through the Daily Express?

[maestro]

Lib Dem hypocrisy

[delboy01]

Retail sales were up 2.3% in April against expectations of 1%.

So those of us saying they were down in March due to easter being in April were right. I.e. technical reasons.

Ner na ne ner ner


Yes, yes I know we haven't left yet blar blar blar.

[chelmsfordeagle]

Originally Posted by dim

Some people need to take a look at themselves. Link between Brexit and slavery and empire......

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting a direct link. More that people who think the British Empire was great, did more good than bad etc, who also believe that Britain was a moral crusader attempting to eradicate slavery tend to be the people who have strong nationalistic ideals; think that brexit will make Britain 'great' again, that they (the EU) need us more than we need them etc etc.

[fang]

Originally Posted by delboy01

Ner na ne ner ner .

Thought provoking analysis. Thank you.

[Percy Dalton]

Can you define "Strong Nationalistic ideas" nearly everybody I know who voted leave did so on the basis that the EU was undemocratic and heading towards a super European state nobody ever voted for and was not wanted. There is a lot that needs fixing in the UK and the EU was not the answer to those problems in fact it was part of the problem. I do not think that the EU needs us more than we need them, nor do I know anybody who holds that view. Of course we need Europe for many reasons and we can offer Europe a lot, but as a trading and exchange of ideas, technology and culture group of independent nations like the Commonwealth. We do not need a very expensive political or currency union run by unelected technocrats with huge salaries and jobs for the political so called elite.

Just a few examples. Concorde was a joint French project from before the EU or even before the UK joined the Common Market. Europe had a Space program before the EU came about. NATO was created before the EU as a pan European/North Atlantic defence organisation and has served well why do we need an EU army which appears to be the next mad Brussels project. We can of course be proud of our country just as the French are proud of France, Italians are proud of Italy, etc etc the majority of sensible people can balance history with today and the future, more so than many commentators, politicians and so called experts think the average person on the streets of the countries of Europe are able to do so. Of course when the majority vote in a way that is not the way these so called elite believe the average man/woman should they throw a hissy fit and do all they can to install doubt and change people's minds. They insult us by telling us they know best and we didn't know what we are doing. Well time will tell, but I am certain and confident the same as most people I know who voted leaveand now a fair few who voted to remain that the UK's future is a positive one and the EU will not exist ten years from now, but a co operative non formal Commonwealth group of European nations that will be positive for all its peoples not just a select few.

[weltklasse]

Originally Posted by Percy Dalton

Can you define "Strong Nationalistic ideas" nearly everybody I know who voted leave did so on the basis that the EU was undemocratic and heading towards a super European state nobody ever voted for and was not wanted. There is a lot that needs fixing in the UK and the EU was not the answer to those problems in fact it was part of the problem. I do not think that the EU needs us more than we need them, nor do I know anybody who holds that view. Of course we need Europe for many reasons and we can offer Europe a lot, but as a trading and exchange of ideas, technology and culture group of independent nations like the Commonwealth. We do not need a very expensive political or currency union run by unelected technocrats with huge salaries and jobs for the political so called elite.

Just a few examples. Concorde was a joint French project from before the EU or even before the UK joined the Common Market. Europe had a Space program before the EU came about. NATO was created before the EU as a pan European/North Atlantic defence organisation and has served well why do we need an EU army which appears to be the next mad Brussels project. We can of course be proud of our country just as the French are proud of France, Italians are proud of Italy, etc etc the majority of sensible people can balance history with today and the future, more so than many commentators, politicians and so called experts think the average person on the streets of the countries of Europe are able to do so. Of course when the majority vote in a way that is not the way these so called elite believe the average man/woman should they throw a hissy fit and do all they can to install doubt and change people's minds. They insult us by telling us they know best and we didn't know what we are doing. Well time will tell, but I am certain and confident the same as most people I know who voted leaveand now a fair few who voted to remain that the UK's future is a positive one and the EU will not exist ten years from now, but a co operative non formal Commonwealth group of European nations that will be positive for all its peoples not just a select few.

so because you and people you know think the EU will collapse its a given? Thanks but i prefer to go for a reasoned approach rather then gut instict.

[chelmsfordeagle]

Originally Posted by Percy Dalton

Can you define "Strong Nationalistic ideas" nearly everybody I know who voted leave did so on the basis that the EU was undemocratic

Ideals not ideas. My definition would be people that see a combined identity of nation, state and people as unchangeable. And feel that any perceived or real change or challenge to this as a threat.

As per my previous post these people tend to believe in the great British Empire and that Britain can become great again be removing itself from the EU. I didn't suggest that all leave voters think this, which you seem to have assumed. However, there are several posters that fall into this category. willcpfc , biggin, skintagain, palaceea. They may deny it. If they do i don't believe them.

[YASSA the PALACETINIAN]

Those opposed to Brexit seem perfectly happy for us to be governed by an autocratic organisation over which we have no control.
The Council of Ministers is an unelected, unaccountable, undemocratic body who are, to all intents and purposes, omnipotent, who are supported by a largely supine European Parliament, which is perfectly happy to go along with most things as long as they can continue to draw their salaries and expenses, live high on the hog and look forward to a pension only a few can dream about.
In a true democracy, the party asking for permission to govern the country presents its manifesto and if elected must largely stick to their promises. If they “fall short”, they can be removed by the democratic process of elections. This is not true of the EU, the Council of Ministers can govern without fear as it is impossible to reject their laws and they cannot be democratically voted out. To suggest that Brexit is the cause of the division between Scotland and England is a fallacy. As long ago as the Sixties the SNP were demanding separation and control over the so called ‘Scottish Oil’. Brexit is just something else they have latched onto to achieve their ultimate goal.

Under EU laws, we are not allowed to negotiate trade deals until we have left the EU. We have however, set up a framework of strong relationships and understandings with a number of counties outside of the EU, who have agreed that they would be ready and willing to sign trade deals with the UK as and when we leave the EU. The ‘European Coal and Steel Community’ was founded in 1951 and was the vehicle for Monett to declare his dream of a “United States of Europe, which the people of Europe must be led into with- out them realising what was happening”. That they, the EU, follow this instruction almost to the letter is, without doubt. There has been a huge rise of populist parties right across Europe - could it be that the European people are tired of the lack of democracy and accountability from a failing and crumbling organisation, which when it is disobeyed or challenged can only retaliate with threats and insults. History has shown that when those governing do not listen to those governed and do not give them the opportunity to voice their opinion in an election, then the system is eventually brought to its knees, often by civil disobedience and some- times by civil War.
I love my country and I am a democrat, I was given a democratic choice and I chose to leave - Democracy in Action. Please do not imply that those who chose to leave are either stupid or didn't know what they were doing or were somehow conned.
I am assisting a businessman, currently in the process of establishing a large manufacturing facility within the UK and who will be glad to see the back of the ‘dead hand’ of the EU and its interfering and restrictive rules and regulations. Had we voted to remain the factory would not have been built in the UK or the EU and the 600+ jobs would have gone abroad. These permanent jobs will enjoy the same current protection and will all be paid above the current minimum wage structures.

Get used to the idea, we are leaving the EU, try to make the best of it.

[Nth Kent Eagle]

Originally Posted by delboy01

Retail sales were up 2.3% in April against expectations of 1%.

So those of us saying they were down in March due to easter being in April were right. I.e. technical reasons.

Ner na ne ner ner


Yes, yes I know we haven't left yet blar blar blar.

Absolute basics. Never take one month in isolation. November and December stats this year were affected by the earlier timing of Black Friday compared to 2015 which meant a bigger proportion of sales were recorded on November and less in December 16.

[jackstacks]

Your below post is littered with fallacies.

For instance, the Council is actually made up of the elected Governments of the 28. When it sits for example as an Environment Council, it is made up of the 28 Member States' environment ministers.

I suspect you mean the Commission. It is important to note the Commission is the initiator of laws, not the decision-maker. The key decision maker is the Council (although the elected Parliament can block the passing of laws if it feels they are inappropriate).

One other point. The businessman you refer to may well be tired of the regulations that hold his business back. Those regulations protect the environment, the consumer and the worker. Unnecessary "red tape" indeed.

Originally Posted by YASSA the PALACETINIAN

Those opposed to Brexit seem perfectly happy for us to be governed by an autocratic organisation over which we have no control.
The Council of Ministers is an unelected, unaccountable, undemocratic body who are, to all intents and purposes, omnipotent, who are supported by a largely supine European Parliament, which is perfectly happy to go along with most things as long as they can continue to draw their salaries and expenses, live high on the hog and look forward to a pension only a few can dream about.
In a true democracy, the party asking for permission to govern the country presents its manifesto and if elected must largely stick to their promises. If they “fall short”, they can be removed by the democratic process of elections. This is not true of the EU, the Council of Ministers can govern without fear as it is impossible to reject their laws and they cannot be democratically voted out. To suggest that Brexit is the cause of the division between Scotland and England is a fallacy. As long ago as the Sixties the SNP were demanding separation and control over the so called ‘Scottish Oil’. Brexit is just something else they have latched onto to achieve their ultimate goal.

Under EU laws, we are not allowed to negotiate trade deals until we have left the EU. We have however, set up a framework of strong relationships and understandings with a number of counties outside of the EU, who have agreed that they would be ready and willing to sign trade deals with the UK as and when we leave the EU. The ‘European Coal and Steel Community’ was founded in 1951 and was the vehicle for Monett to declare his dream of a “United States of Europe, which the people of Europe must be led into with- out them realising what was happening”. That they, the EU, follow this instruction almost to the letter is, without doubt. There has been a huge rise of populist parties right across Europe - could it be that the European people are tired of the lack of democracy and accountability from a failing and crumbling organisation, which when it is disobeyed or challenged can only retaliate with threats and insults. History has shown that when those governing do not listen to those governed and do not give them the opportunity to voice their opinion in an election, then the system is eventually brought to its knees, often by civil disobedience and some- times by civil War.
I love my country and I am a democrat, I was given a democratic choice and I chose to leave - Democracy in Action. Please do not imply that those who chose to leave are either stupid or didn't know what they were doing or were somehow conned.
I am assisting a businessman, currently in the process of establishing a large manufacturing facility within the UK and who will be glad to see the back of the ‘dead hand’ of the EU and its interfering and restrictive rules and regulations. Had we voted to remain the factory would not have been built in the UK or the EU and the 600+ jobs would have gone abroad. These permanent jobs will enjoy the same current protection and will all be paid above the current minimum wage structures.

Get used to the idea, we are leaving the EU, try to make the best of it.

[weltklasse]

Many people think its a disasterous move, get over it. yes Yassa i am talking to you.

[Maz]

Amazing that so many can vote leave without understanding how the EU works.

[jackstacks]

Originally Posted by Maz

Amazing that so many can vote leave without understanding how the EU works.

Far too late now but reading a decent newspaper would have helped instead of buying the comics that foster ignorance and fear of the foreigner.

[fang]

I've just waded through that for a second time. It's difficult to know where to begin. What an absolute shambles of a post.

Originally Posted by YASSA the PALACETINIAN

Please do not imply that those who chose to leave are either stupid or didn't know what they were doing or were somehow conned.

I'm afraid you have done little to dissuade me of this view.