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  #221  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
They are falling. And there is no evidence that any non-existent rise is due to the Tories.
Gone up overall since 2010. With the initial spike in 2010. Before that they went down for 150 years.

The only time you get those rise fluctuations in the data is post 2010.

I would guess it is due to stagnant/falling wages throughout the Tory governments. Quite an impressively terrible feat itself when employment has been going up at the same time.
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  #222  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 13thsasquatch View Post
Gone up overall since 2010. With the initial spike in 2010. Before that they went down for 150 years.

The only time you get those rise fluctuations in the data is post 2010.
.
This is simply untrue. Do you have a source?
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  #223  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Agreed it is circular.

But donít you find it a bit wrong that with all the technology in human advancements the working week hasnít decreased? You donít think society can decrease it in days and hours and this is as good as it gets?
I think a 4 day week of compressed hours (eg 4 x 10) is suitable for some businesses and not others. Not something to be dictated by govt.

I think a 4 day week of 28ish hours but expecting to be paid a full weekís wage is not realistic or sustainable.

Tech tends to be used to reduce staff numbers, not keep on the same number of staff and pay them the same to do less. Thatís one of the main reasons for investing in the tech, if you run a manufacturing company for example. Plus some functions are more accurately fulfilled by tech, which can work 24/7.
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  #224  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post


Scandalous?
Yes it is. Since 10 years ago working hours are up. With all the technological advances in the last ten years and the huge increase in wealth that is indicative of a very warped society.
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  #225  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:00 PM
13thsasquatch 13thsasquatch is offline
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
And the source is?
Is this the age of the four-day week?

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Links through to few small scale studies.
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  #226  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
I think a 4 day week of compressed hours (eg 4 x 10) is suitable for some businesses and not others. Not something to be dictated by govt.

I think a 4 day week of 28ish hours but expecting to be paid a full week’s wage is not realistic or sustainable.

Tech tends to be used to reduce staff numbers, not keep on the same number of staff and pay them the same to do less. That’s one of the main reasons for investing in the tech, if you run a manufacturing company for example. Plus some functions are more accurately fulfilled by tech, which can work 24/7.
So given we have hugely decreased working weeks compared to a hundred years ago, working weeks can clearly decrease.

We now have a working week slightly less to 20 years ago, and the same as ten years ago, despite huge increases in wealth and massive leaps in technology. So how can it not be possible?

You think we have reached the limit of what humanity can do for the working week and hours and any further advancements have to go in to wealth and profit? You think that all we can expect from technology is less jobs?

Grim horizons you have.
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  #227  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Yes it is. Since 10 years ago working hours are up. With all the technological advances in the last ten years and the huge increase in wealth that is indicative of a very warped society.

I really think you need to stop linking this issue with wealth.


They are not related, except in the most abstruse way.
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  #228  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
This is simply untrue. Do you have a source?
It was a graph in Rutger Bregman's book Utopia for Realists, quoting from memory.

Looking online there are graphs that show a rise in the 90s as well. Fair enough, I'll concede you are correct as I'm citing from memory which is less reliable.
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  #229  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:11 PM
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Surely the real measure that should be implemented is to compel companies to implement flexible working hours. The employee should have flexibility to deliver he or her deliverables in any time frame they see fit.

Perhaps the fifth day of the work week can be spent on some personal development activity that might make an employee happier and deliver greater productivity.

It is funny to see that the four day working week contrasts to the "996" (work 9am -9pm 6 days a week) espoused in Asia.
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  #230  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE View Post
Surely the real measure that should be implemented is to compel companies to implement flexible working hours. The employee should have flexibility to deliver he or her deliverables in any time frame they see fit.
.
Not too sure how that theory works with the service sector. Or even much of manufacturing.
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  #231  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:24 PM
13thsasquatch 13thsasquatch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE View Post
Surely the real measure that should be implemented is to compel companies to implement flexible working hours. The employee should have flexibility to deliver he or her deliverables in any time frame they see fit.

Perhaps the fifth day of the work week can be spent on some personal development activity that might make an employee happier and deliver greater productivity.

It is funny to see that the four day working week contrasts to the "996" (work 9am -9pm 6 days a week) espoused in Asia.
This is one reason I prefer UBI to a 4 day week. People can cut their hours if they want to, with a corresponding salary reduction, so no extra costs to employer except maybe recruitment of more staff.

There really is no particular reason for a 5 day week beyond culture. As you say, it's different elsewhere (and I believe in S Korea it's bad form to take all your annual leave as well).

The only reason we have a 7 day week is because 4000 years ago the Babylonians considered 7 a sacred number. It's amazing how many people wouldn't know that even though the whole of society revolves around it.
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  #232  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I can believe that. But it's foolish (and I speak with some knowledge here) to think that this stress simply vanishes if people spend more time at home.



The better approach (and, hey what, I speak with some knowledge here !) is to create a less-stressed working environment and to teach employees how to better handle stress when they encounter it.
I'm not entirely convinced of the latter, though I agree with the former.

Stress isn't actually something you can cope with, its the product of a maladaptive survival mechanism based around survival, thats ties into the operation of the central neverous system and endocrine system. The degree to which you can prevent this being harmful when triggered through 'teaching' is very limited, and akin to directing stress in a less toxic manner to people around you (ie not blowing your stack) and instead trying to remain calm and ride the stress out.

Ironically, health wise, thats probably a lot worse for you, the nature of the stress response is to gear up for fight or flight. The stress response typically surrenders long term 'health' for short term survival and thats what causes stressful sickness, that 'survival' setting.

I don't believe that people can be coached on how to deal with stress in a manner that does any real benefit (short of neurochemical means) Instead, as you suggest, the goal should be to eliminate stress from work.

Its a bit like trying to remain calm when high on speed / cocaine - you can maintain a calm mind, but your body is still stressed to f**k, because its in flight or fight mode. You can get a zen like calm whilst stressed, definately, but thats largely down to the way the adrenaline works rather than it being 'dealt with'.

Stress occurs at probably the most primal level of the human nervous system and endocrine systems. No amount of neo-cortex process will touch it.
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  #233  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post


Scandalous?
It's not clear whether the rise in hours over the last ten years is good or bad? I know plenty who had their hours cut in the recession and who actually want more hours and overtime. I suspect it is more positive than negative.
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  #234  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post


Scandalous?
It is scandalous...in our house, apparently I do nothing...well, clearly I work 5 hours per week more than you will be my response next time...

* probably wont be
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  #235  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
I really think you need to stop linking this issue with wealth.

They are not related, except in the most abstruse way.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think as a society gets wealthier the benefits should go to all, including working weeks reducing. But I accept you donít agree.
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  #236  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dogstar721 View Post
I'm not entirely convinced of the latter, though I agree with the former.

Stress isn't actually something you can cope with
I know people who make very good livings, (successfully) helping people cope with stress.


Most learned behaviours can be unlearned.
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  #237  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE View Post
Surely the real measure that should be implemented is to compel companies to implement flexible working hours. The employee should have flexibility to deliver he or her deliverables in any time frame they see fit.

Perhaps the fifth day of the work week can be spent on some personal development activity that might make an employee happier and deliver greater productivity.

It is funny to see that the four day working week contrasts to the "996" (work 9am -9pm 6 days a week) espoused in Asia.
What a miserable society a 996 is.
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  #238  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So given we have hugely decreased working weeks compared to a hundred years ago, working weeks can clearly decrease.

We now have a working week slightly less to 20 years ago, and the same as ten years ago, despite huge increases in wealth and massive leaps in technology. So how can it not be possible?

You think we have reached the limit of what humanity can do for the working week and hours and any further advancements have to go in to wealth and profit? You think that all we can expect from technology is less jobs?

Grim horizons you have.
Well, I canít speak for what might happen in a hundred years, but I do know we live in a global economy now and the U.K. is a considerably better place to work than most. Your measures, if imposed on businesses that have to be competitive, would result in loss of that competitiveness and orders simply going elsewhere.

Maybe we have reached the peak? We probably reached the peak in this generation when many people could retire before/at 60.

Forgive me but it sounds like you really hate what you do. Iíd look at that and what you can personally change to improve that situation (be it moving, retraining etc). Donít wait in hope that govt or society will somehow change your circumstances.
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  #239  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post


Scandalous?
The graph shows, in 18 years, a 0.8 change for men and a 0.1 change for women. Thatís an average of about 5-50 mins difference across a week.

Not sure what the hand wringing by some on this thread is about?
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  #240  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:15 PM
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As long at it is for all workers then I can see it being a popular policy. As someone who works in education not sure how this would work.
Easy, give kids a 4-day week as well!
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