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  #1141  
Old 27-09-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
Yeah, we need more of the likes of Kim Philby, Nick Clegg, Chris Huhne, Giles Coren and that bellend from Bush in Parliament.
The bell end from Bush was in my year. We did not let him mix with the cool crowd. All the same I think I would prefer him, Shane McGowan and Helena Bonham Carter to Jacob Rees Mogg.
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  #1142  
Old 27-09-2019, 06:49 PM
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My point was that Charles tried to arrest 3 MPs; Cromwell purged half the House!
I agree he should be criticised for leaving the job half done.
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  #1143  
Old 28-09-2019, 09:34 AM
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But isnít it just an example of everyone-else-politicking to reject the leader of the opposition becoming PM to effect this?
Why would a Labour Leave MP accept that it mustnít be Corbyn, and support a Tory, or a Remainer?
The problem is that Corbyn is transparently trying to use Brexit as a lever to get into power and implement the whole gamut of Labour policies. Now, without getting into the whys and wherefores of Labour's policies, the fact is that Brexit transcends ordinary politics - it is analogous to (though obviously not as serious as) a war in that we have clear, massive and - crucially - urgent problem to resolve, and Corbyn's policies on nationalisation, say, have to be secondary to that.

Having an obviously temporary all-party unity government under a non-frontbench PM and deputy PM removes the temptations and doubts people might have about the participants' motives - it weakens the argument that it is a Trojan horse for unrelated and controversial opposition policies.

A Clarke/Harman-type PM with a multiparty cabinet which declares its only focus is to extend and organise a second referendum is the best option. It can be time-limited, its leadership clearly won't be trying to further their careers, and it could even pledge not to overturn current non-Brexit Tory policies for the sake of neutrality until there has been a second referendum, after which it will dissolve parliament and normal politics can resume. For the sake of 6 months or so that's got a sensible option.
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  #1144  
Old 28-09-2019, 09:49 AM
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s.

A Clarke/Harman-type PM with a multiparty cabinet which declares its only focus is to extend and organise a second referendum is the best option. It can be time-limited, its leadership clearly won't be trying to further their careers, and it could even pledge not to overturn current non-Brexit Tory policies for the sake of neutrality until there has been a second referendum, after which it will dissolve parliament and normal politics can resume. For the sake of 6 months or so that's got a sensible option.
Pie in the sky. At least 30 Labour votes lost, and that would probably be enough to prevent it. I imagine the numbers have been crunched to death.

It really doesn't matter how often you and others say it, but it won't work. It some ways I wish it would.
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  #1145  
Old 28-09-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
The problem is that Corbyn is transparently trying to use Brexit as a lever to get into power and implement the whole gamut of Labour policies. Now, without getting into the whys and wherefores of Labour's policies, the fact is that Brexit transcends ordinary politics - it is analogous to (though obviously not as serious as) a war in that we have clear, massive and - crucially - urgent problem to resolve, and Corbyn's policies on nationalisation, say, have to be secondary to that.

Having an obviously temporary all-party unity government under a non-frontbench PM and deputy PM removes the temptations and doubts people might have about the participants' motives - it weakens the argument that it is a Trojan horse for unrelated and controversial opposition policies.

A Clarke/Harman-type PM with a multiparty cabinet which declares its only focus is to extend and organise a second referendum is the best option. It can be time-limited, its leadership clearly won't be trying to further their careers, and it could even pledge not to overturn current non-Brexit Tory policies for the sake of neutrality until there has been a second referendum, after which it will dissolve parliament and normal politics can resume. For the sake of 6 months or so that's got a sensible option.
Ideally I'd like to see Parliament support Corbyn, for him to extend, negotiate and bring back a bill that will be voted through subject to referendum, then GE.

That's unlikely to happen, so next best would be Corbyn extending followed by GE.

At the moment Parliament is trying to force Johnson to extend, which is risky. Lots of things could happen and if Johnson doesn't resign even after a VoNC we are likely to not get an election until after 31 Oct - unless Parliament agrees to another PM, which, if not Corbyn, is not likely to happen.

Would be funny watching Umunna going through the lobby to support Corbyn - which is probably why it won't happen.

As I've said above, if Corbyn stepped aside the leaver Labour MPs would not support anybody else - so No Deal. If Corbyn is voted down, same result, although probably even more tribal.
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  #1146  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:24 PM
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A tricky situation.
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  #1147  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:28 PM
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A tricky situation.
Been reading a bit about negotiations (but have no idea how true it all is) - seems that some of the rebel Tories and most of the opposition inc SNP, Plaid, Green are on board for a caretaker Corbyn to take No Deal out of the equation for a while at least - but Lib Dem & few Indies are against it. Which probably means it won't happen at all, with anybody there.


Can't really see how Corbyn would be able to enact any Labour policies so the objection must be purely Party Political - i.e they don't want him to look PM-ish.
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  #1148  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:36 PM
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Been reading a bit about negotiations (but have no idea how true it all is) - seems that some of the rebel Tories and most of the opposition inc SNP, Plaid, Green are on board for a caretaker Corbyn to take No Deal out of the equation for a while at least - but Lib Dem & few Indies are against it. Which probably means it won't happen at all, with anybody there.


Can't really see how Corbyn would be able to enact any Labour policies so the objection must be purely Party Political - i.e they don't want him to look PM-ish.
Swinson says Corbyn would be too divisive.
And I think she fails to see the irony in her stance.
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  #1149  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:46 PM
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Swinson says Corbyn would be too divisive.
And I think she fails to see the irony in her stance.
Maybe as a full on "remain" Party, a No Deal would actually benefit the Lib Dems in the medium term?
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  #1150  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:48 PM
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The Liberals want to take Labour votes - they have to continue this bogey man stuff as it’s very effective on centre type Labour voters - and would be damaged if Corbyn was in power doing mainstream stuff.
Really though, I think a referendum needs to come before an election and that it probably does need to take six months to set up; and in six months a govt can be called on to do quite a lot.
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  #1151  
Old 28-09-2019, 12:51 PM
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Maybe as a full on "remain" Party, a No Deal would actually benefit the Lib Dems in the medium term?
I think thatís the gamble at the minute, isnít it?

If the opposition parties do manage to get Boris to extend without taking power themselves through a VONC then the Tories are finished at a general election, with more of their vote than anyone elseís going to the Brexit party.

I actually think a scenario where Corbyn leads a government of national unity to extend and call a general election works in the Tories favour as they can scream betrayal and not be far wrong.
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  #1152  
Old 28-09-2019, 01:11 PM
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The Liberals want to take Labour votes - they have to continue this bogey man stuff as it’s very effective on centre type Labour voters - and would be damaged if Corbyn was in power doing mainstream stuff.
Really though, I think a referendum needs to come before an election and that it probably does need to take six months to set up; and in six months a govt can be called on to do quite a lot.
Quite, which is why it has to be a national unity government.

And Corbyn is a useless politician, surrounded by authoritarian Stalinists.

Take the whole public school thing. I am absolutely anti Public schools, they are a massive impediment to education and social mobility. We will never have a inclusive achieving education system for all in this country while the top 7% of the country have no stake in it.

So what do they say - 'we will seize the assets of the public schools'. That scares the shit out of people, and makes people ask will they seize my assets. Labour currently come across as the anti-ambition, anti hardwork, and punish success party.

If however you said everyone is free to educate their children privately if they so wish but we are going to boost the state system everyone would be happy.

If you then explained that Public schools are businesses - just like after school private tutors, language schools, corporate training etc and we hope they do well but they have to pay their fair share of tax like everyone else no one would object to them paying rates and VAT on fees.

Likewise with Universities you can't legislate admission on social or parental background, however there are funding mechanisms that can favour accepting a balanced intake.

It should be about positive and fair progression, not regressive retribution
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  #1153  
Old 28-09-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Quite, which is why it has to be a national unity government.

And Corbyn is a useless politician, surrounded by authoritarian Stalinists.

Take the whole public school thing. I am absolutely anti Public schools, they are a massive impediment to education and social mobility. We will never have a inclusive achieving education system for all in this country while the top 7% of the country have no stake in it.

So what do they say - we will seize the assets of the public schools. That scares the shit out of people, will the seize my assets, they are anti-ambition and hardwork etc.

If however you said everyone is free to educate their children privately if they so wish but we are going to boost the state system everyone would be happy.

If you then explained that Public schools are businesses - just like after school private tutors, language schools, corporate training etc and we hope they do well but they have to pay their fair share of tax like everyone else no one would object to them paying rates and VAT on fees.

Likewise with Universities you can't legislate admission on social or parental background, however there are funding mechanisms that can favour accepting a balanced intake.

It should be about positive and fair progression, not regressive retribution
Perhaps, but all completely irrelevant to installing Corbyn as caretaker to rule out No Deal.

It's heading towards exactly that choice - and a caretaker Corbyn won't be doing much policy rollout without a manifesto commitment and election which might or might not give him the Parliamentary numbers.
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  #1154  
Old 28-09-2019, 01:20 PM
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That’s where the manifesto will end up, I imagine, re. Labour.
On the national unity government - for how long? To do what? And containing whom? Surely not just Remainers?
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  #1155  
Old 29-09-2019, 07:10 AM
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The bell end from Bush was in my year. We did not let him mix with the cool crowd. All the same I think I would prefer him, Shane McGowan and Helena Bonham Carter to Jacob Rees Mogg.
Rossdale?

Razor blade suitcase was a decent angsty album, but they always were bigger in the States, there bassist was also in Transvision Vamp, with that pretty girl

I also liked his demon role in Constantine too

If I was Carlos, I'd sign off with cheers Bushyboys..
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  #1156  
Old 29-09-2019, 07:20 AM
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I think thatís the gamble at the minute, isnít it?

If the opposition parties do manage to get Boris to extend without taking power themselves through a VONC then the Tories are finished at a general election, with more of their vote than anyone elseís going to the Brexit party.

I actually think a scenario where Corbyn leads a government of national unity to extend and call a general election works in the Tories favour as they can scream betrayal and not be far wrong.
I'm not sure on second paragraph Max, in GE's people will still i feel go with the status quo, although Brexit party will pick up a few seats, I can't see them making inroads.

As others have said, Swinson doesn't appear keen or trusting to be a Corbyn kingmaker, even on a temp basis
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  #1157  
Old 29-09-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quite, which is why it has to be a national unity government.

And Corbyn is a useless politician, surrounded by authoritarian Stalinists.

Take the whole public school thing. I am absolutely anti Public schools, they are a massive impediment to education and social mobility. We will never have a inclusive achieving education system for all in this country while the top 7% of the country have no stake in it.

So what do they say - 'we will seize the assets of the public schools'. That scares the shit out of people, and makes people ask will they seize my assets. Labour currently come across as the anti-ambition, anti hardwork, and punish success party.

If however you said everyone is free to educate their children privately if they so wish but we are going to boost the state system everyone would be happy.

If you then explained that Public schools are businesses - just like after school private tutors, language schools, corporate training etc and we hope they do well but they have to pay their fair share of tax like everyone else no one would object to them paying rates and VAT on fees.

Likewise with Universities you can't legislate admission on social or parental background, however there are funding mechanisms that can favour accepting a balanced intake.

It should be about positive and fair progression, not regressive retribution
There were naughty rumours that Clause 4 may be making a return..

Although a revamped British Rail instead of the bloated, porcine, fat cat lousy franchises would be popular
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  #1158  
Old 30-09-2019, 06:20 AM
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Ideally I'd like to see Parliament support Corbyn, for him to extend, negotiate and bring back a bill that will be voted through subject to referendum, then GE.

That's unlikely to happen, so next best would be Corbyn extending followed by GE.

At the moment Parliament is trying to force Johnson to extend, which is risky. Lots of things could happen and if Johnson doesn't resign even after a VoNC we are likely to not get an election until after 31 Oct - unless Parliament agrees to another PM, which, if not Corbyn, is not likely to happen.

Would be funny watching Umunna going through the lobby to support Corbyn - which is probably why it won't happen.

As I've said above, if Corbyn stepped aside the leaver Labour MPs would not support anybody else - so No Deal. If Corbyn is voted down, same result, although probably even more tribal.
If there is a VONC this week I would support a Corbyn-led unity government, if there was no alternative, but any Tory press campaign will be even more vituperative than if it were a 'neutral' PM.

I also doubt Corbyn because (unless I've missed it) he hasn't talked about heading a unity government: he wants to form a Labour one.
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Old 22-10-2019, 08:51 PM
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Unlawful but letís go to court to work it out because itís not written down ermmmm but I thought it was unlawfull - well it will be when we go to court.
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