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  #4261  
Old 18-10-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CPFC.1990 View Post
Such as.....? I look at threads and can't see these mythical Boris fans you speak of.


Look harder. Or not at all. Up to you.
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  #4262  
Old 20-10-2019, 01:52 PM
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So BJ sent the letter unsigned like a truculent 12 year old. He then sent another letter saying he doesn't want the letter acted upon.

If the EU don't grant an extension and cite his 2nd letter as part of their reasoning I think it is almost impossible to argue he hasn't deliberately sought to undermine the intent of the Benn act and has thus broken the law.

One would hope that would end with jail time
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  #4263  
Old 20-10-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
So BJ sent the letter unsigned like a truculent 12 year old. He then sent another letter saying he doesn't want the letter acted upon.

If the EU don't grant an extension and cite his 2nd letter as part of their reasoning I think it is almost impossible to argue he hasn't deliberately sought to undermine the intent of the Benn act and has thus broken the law.

One would hope that would end with jail time

I make you right. The definition of a 'letter' in this serious context is surely not just something that has been typed.



And you're right about the truculence, which surely diminishes him on the global stage.
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  #4264  
Old 20-10-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
So BJ sent the letter unsigned like a truculent 12 year old. He then sent another letter saying he doesn't want the letter acted upon.

If the EU don't grant an extension and cite his 2nd letter as part of their reasoning I think it is almost impossible to argue he hasn't deliberately sought to undermine the intent of the Benn act and has thus broken the law.

One would hope that would end with jail time
Except that his second letter doesn't say that he doesn't want the first one acted on. Granted, it's obvious that he doesn't want an extension but he has carefully said "It is, of course, for the European council to decide ……………."

As for the intent of the Benn Act, I believe it used to be the case that the courts took the view that Parliament's intent was what Parliament had legislated for and that it was not for the courts to infer any additional intent. But perhaps my memory is letting me down and I'm certainly no legal expert. However, from every way you look at it, it is surely most unlikely that the government had not taken legal advice on the legality of the second letter. The supreme court could overrule that advice, of course, but even if it did, provided Johnson could say that, based on the advice of the attorney general, he reasonably and genuinely believed he was obeying the law then I doubt he'd get a custodial sentence.

The Benn Act is perhaps not as clever as was thought.
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  #4265  
Old 20-10-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Hal Low View Post
Except that his second letter doesn't say that he doesn't want the first one acted on. Granted, it's obvious that he doesn't want an extension but he has carefully said "It is, of course, for the European council to decide ……………."

As for the intent of the Benn Act, I believe it used to be the case that the courts took the view that Parliament's intent was what Parliament had legislated for and that it was not for the courts to infer any additional intent. But perhaps my memory is letting me down and I'm certainly no legal expert. However, from every way you look at it, it is surely most unlikely that the government had not taken legal advice on the legality of the second letter. The supreme court could overrule that advice, of course, but even if it did, provided Johnson could say that, based on the advice of the attorney general, he reasonably and genuinely believed he was obeying the law then I doubt he'd get a custodial sentence.

The Benn Act is perhaps not as clever as was thought.
I think the intent was clear even if the drafting could have been better. That Boris resorted to this stunt underscores why Parliament needs to see the text of the withdrawal Bill before voting on it.
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  #4266  
Old 20-10-2019, 08:41 PM
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He should be held in contempt of parliament and court. Any PM who disregards the will of a democratic parliament and their own legal system, regardless of their belief in a matter, isn't fit to hold office.

Regardless of whether you're leave it remain, a PM who defied parliament or the courts is not something this country needs or wants. It sets a terrible precedent for the future
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  #4267  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Hal Low View Post
Except that his second letter doesn't say that he doesn't want the first one acted on. Granted, it's obvious that he doesn't want an extension but he has carefully said "It is, of course, for the European council to decide ……………."

As for the intent of the Benn Act, I believe it used to be the case that the courts took the view that Parliament's intent was what Parliament had legislated for and that it was not for the courts to infer any additional intent. But perhaps my memory is letting me down and I'm certainly no legal expert. However, from every way you look at it, it is surely most unlikely that the government had not taken legal advice on the legality of the second letter. The supreme court could overrule that advice, of course, but even if it did, provided Johnson could say that, based on the advice of the attorney general, he reasonably and genuinely believed he was obeying the law then I doubt he'd get a custodial sentence.

The Benn Act is perhaps not as clever as was thought.
I'm sure that previous legal advice the government sought also told them what they wanted to hear. And do you remember what happened then?
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  #4268  
Old 21-10-2019, 05:51 AM
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Contempt proceedings being brought in Scotland.
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  #4269  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:31 AM
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We've asked the EU for an extension but does the Benn act stipulate that we have to accept their offer? Presumably they can't force us to stay in for another three months so what happens once the eu say yes to our request?
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  #4270  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:37 AM
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  #4271  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:43 AM
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We've asked the EU for an extension but does the Benn act stipulate that we have to accept their offer? Presumably they can't force us to stay in for another three months so what happens once the eu say yes to our request?
By definition, the letter asks for an extension, it also asks for an extension up to the 31st of January 2020. The EU can deny it totally, or can honour the request, or even give a longer extension should they think it more appropriate. As for the UK, we have no choice now the letter has been sent, we asked for one and it will either be granted, or not. We can ignore it of course if it is granted, but the institutions of the EU and the trade rules and regulations will still apply, nevertheless. It cannot be considered "forced" upon us if it gives us what we asked for.
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  #4272  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:49 AM
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How the hell people have been fooled by this lying upper class headcase, is beyond me.
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  #4273  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by biggus mickus View Post
How the hell people have been fooled by this lying upper class headcase, is beyond me.
Some people want brexit at any cost. If he pulled out a loaded gun in Westminster and shot Bercow some would still justify his actions as it showing his frustration with remoaners for not having a can do spirit and instead just wanting to stand in the way of the will of the people.
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  #4274  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
I'm sure that previous legal advice the government sought also told them what they wanted to hear. And do you remember what happened then?
Indeed I do. All I'm saying is that I think it is highly likely that Johnson had good legal advice that his actions as regards the letters were lawful. That advice might be overruled but my point was that, as a layman, I think it unlikely that he would 'do time' because he will be able to say that, on the basis of his expert legal advice, he genuinely believed he was acting lawfully.

If, however, he acted as he did without getting clearance from an expert such as the attorney general then he deserves to do time for the crime of stupidity

I can claim to know a little about this because about half a century ago I got a 'C' grade in British Constitution GCE (for younger BBSers i.e everyone except Percy Dalton and Les Butler, GCEs were the exams before GCSE).
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  #4275  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:06 AM
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Contempt proceedings being brought in Scotland.
Why Scotland?
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  #4276  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:16 AM
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Why Scotland?
It’s been bought by Joanna Cherry...

She’s not really going to pursue it but the courts want to see if Johnson has complied with his promise to accede to the Benn act. It’s more a question of finishing previous work. The courts want to see if BJ is in contempt.
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  #4277  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
By definition, the letter asks for an extension, it also asks for an extension up to the 31st of January 2020. The EU can deny it totally, or can honour the request, or even give a longer extension should they think it more appropriate. As for the UK, we have no choice now the letter has been sent, we asked for one and it will either be granted, or not. We can ignore it of course if it is granted, but the institutions of the EU and the trade rules and regulations will still apply, nevertheless. It cannot be considered "forced" upon us if it gives us what we asked for.
They can also offer us a shorter extension. Some talk of that being a reasonable expectation as it makes life easier for the EU to approve everything if they had till the end of November etc.

The problem the EU have is that they have agreed 2 deals with the UK, and so far Parliament has failed to ratify either one. However Parliament has also done nothing to change the status quo so that puts the Eu in a difficult position. It is also why i think Macron is against an extension and said it would take 'major changes' to grant one. By that i read into it that he needs to see Parliament pass a VONC and/or call a general election.

People are saying we cannot do the trade deal between now and December 2020, the timescales are too tight, so why would the EU agree to making them either tighter. They are also unable to pass their budget without getting this all sorted i think so there are many reasons the EU wants to see a quick resolution.

My gut feeling is we will not hear back from them until about Thursday but we shall see.
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  #4278  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolfnipplechips View Post
It’s been bought by Joanna Cherry...

She’s not really going to pursue it but the courts want to see if Johnson has complied with his promise to accede to the Benn act. It’s more a question of finishing previous work. The courts want to see if BJ is in contempt.
Really?

She is clearly pursuing it. She is not simply leaving it to the court.

Ms Cherry said she and her fellow campaigners would now seek to maintain the pressure on Mr Johnson to keep his word by asking the judges to continue the case until later in the week.

"Our legal team are also instructed to remind the court that, as well as promising to comply with the letter of the Benn Act, the PM also promised not to seek to frustrate the purpose of the legislation," she added.
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  #4279  
Old 21-10-2019, 09:31 AM
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Really?

She is clearly pursuing it. She is not simply leaving it to the court.

Ms Cherry said she and her fellow campaigners would now seek to maintain the pressure on Mr Johnson to keep his word by asking the judges to continue the case until later in the week.

"Our legal team are also instructed to remind the court that, as well as promising to comply with the letter of the Benn Act, the PM also promised not to seek to frustrate the purpose of the legislation," she added.
I think he is simply referring to what happens today in court
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Old 21-10-2019, 09:37 AM
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I think he is simply referring to what happens today in court
Ye sin court today she has instructed her legal team to remind the court..... etc.

No issue with that and the court will find as they do, but it was the comment that she is not going to pursue it that I disagreed with - she clearly is.
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