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  #35241  
Old 20-10-2019, 08:38 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Brexit was an open goal for Labour, it is a Tory mess, yet Corbyn makes Benteke look on goal scoring form by comparison.
.
I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
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  #35242  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
Basically agree - it would be crazy to go full remain as remainers want Corbyn to do. I think we can still avoid Brexit through a referendum, but Labour need policies for either result. Looks to me like Johnson or Swinson will be going one of the other which gives them nowhere to go if they lose.
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  #35243  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:31 PM
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I think where Labour has failed is in talking to Leave voters about how damaging different versions of Leave can be, however - at least that is the impression I get; because what were those Labour MPs doing yesterday, voting against scrutiny of Johnson’s deal?
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  #35244  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think where Labour has failed is in talking to Leave voters about how damaging different versions of Leave can be, however - at least that is the impression I get; because what were those Labour MPs doing yesterday, voting against scrutiny of Johnsonís deal?
Good question.
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  #35245  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
CR why would a Labour supporter believe a Alt right Brexit, and let's face it those who ran the Leave campaign are Alt right as is the government and the government's Brexit, could possibly benefit them or be in tune with Labour values.

What part of racism, anti-manufacturing, removing rights, destroying our values and standing, ending international co-operation and importing cheap foreign labour should Labour sympathise with?

Brexit is wrong, Labour should lead its supporters into the light not sympathise with the dark within.

Their position should have always been get a deal have a confirmatory referendum.
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  #35246  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
Didn't roughly the same proportion of Tories vote Remain as Labour supporters who voted Leave?
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  #35247  
Old 20-10-2019, 09:54 PM
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No. More Tories votes remain than labour voted leave. Both in absolute numbers and percentages.
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  #35248  
Old 20-10-2019, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
Have you looked at the Peterboro numbers. The figures for Brexit and Tories combined. The vote was split Mrs May was leading the Tories and Brexit picked up the votes. The combined total was some 18% above the Laboud vote. With the Libs Dems picking up 8%.
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  #35249  
Old 20-10-2019, 10:16 PM
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The problem is rather than fight for the prosperity, peace, rights and freedoms that the EU have helped facilitate - with the UK playing a central role, particulary in expanding membership that has transformed the east of Europe - Corbyn, Milne and Murray have always seen the EU as an enabler for big corporations and a block to a state run command economy that they want to implement.

Of course life, work and business has moved on, transnational just in time manufacturing is only possible in a open free trading area so to that end the EU has been a big business enabler however it has also enshrined rights and protections for workers on an unprecedented scale. Sadly Corbyn hasn't moved on.

I respect how on the right side of history Corbyn has been on may issues such as Iraq and Ireland but he has been conflicted on Brexit and hasn't led.

He shouldn't pamper to Labour Brexiters' false reality he should double down on why what they want won't be delivered by a Tory Brexit but can be delivered by a Labour government within the EU
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Last edited by adrenalin john; 20-10-2019 at 10:19 PM.
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  #35250  
Old 20-10-2019, 10:22 PM
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Not to mention how this is going to absolutely **** with millions of people's lives and families, people who have lived here for years and Brits living in Europe.

Are they really just collateral damage. The parents of a friend of mine, pensioners who have worked here since the 1950s are utterly confused. They are in their 80s they have no idea what to do.

Windrush 2 on a vast scale...
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  #35251  
Old 20-10-2019, 10:25 PM
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Who is standing up for European immigrants and British emigrants?

I am not a Labour voter, but I want a Labour party that wants to look after the vulnerable, those without a voice, not a Labour party that is concerned about pandering to the ignorance of a proportion of their vote who have been sold a pup.

Where is that leadership?
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  #35252  
Old 21-10-2019, 05:09 AM
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I am not a Labour voter
Sums it up really.

Truth is, yours is a remainer argument - something which as a remainer I agree with - but the country is split and if you are going to have a referendum you have to accept there are two possible answers. There'll be many people making the Remain case - but Labour as a party has to be prepared to take forward a vote either way.
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  #35253  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:04 AM
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That Corbyn doesn't want a general election and that he has no policy on holding a brexit referendum.

He does and he does, even though the usual Corbyn fanatics are desperately pushing the line that he hasn't got a policy. I know it's easy to fall in with this stuff if you don't like him but it makes any kind of debate pretty much pointless if people just repeat falsehoods and - when challenged - just say 'it doesn't matter if I tell lies because someone else once made some stuff up' (not what you've done but some prat upthread was happy to openly embrace this line).
And yet, at key times when there have been opportunities to put up meaningful opposition to the disastrous Tory Brexit, Corbyn has refused to back a referendum saying he wanted an election, he's refused to contemplate a clearly temporary coalition unity government, he's made statements about honoring the result and delivering a Labour Brexit whilst making mealy-mouthed statements when the bulk of his party is clearly Remain. He's trying to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Basically, there's always a caveat to his Brexit words and deeds, there's always a 'but...', there's always an obstacle to prevent genuine action. Labour might technically have a policy, but it's so arcane and unlikely to come to fruition it's pointless.

This May's government was utterly shit: the worst government in modern times. Johnson's is worse. And Corbyn won't go the whole distance with the rest of the parliamentary opposition to do anything about it.
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  #35254  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:13 AM
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I really disagree with this, it's a nightmare for Labour - somewhere between 3 and 4 million Labour voters voted Leave (good reasons for thinking it's at the higher end). That still leaves a clear majority who voted in but no Labour leader could afford to simply ditch the Leavers or give the no way of voting Labour - or at least not without guaranteeing huge electoral defeat. Moreover this has always left them vulnerable to an Arron Banks/Farage style 'patriotic workers party' attack in the north - they were openly mooting this strategy in 2015 aiming at 80 northern seats. I don't think the new party would have won much but they'd have easily opened the door to tory victories in plenty of seats, it could have been very nasty. There was some evidence that the tory party were all a bit in cahoots with this.

In the end Corbyn's successful appeal to trad Labour voters in northern seats in 2017 seems to have warded off this attack but the idea that he can simply ditch leave voters is really nonsensical imo, it would absolutely leave Labour exposed - and for what? A bare handful of Lib dem seats maybe? There are hardly any left to win - most Lib dem marginals are with the tories.

This is aside from the fact that Leave actually won a referendum and it's just dodgy to over-rule it without some kind of democratic process.

Labour's recent victory, by the skin of their teeth, in Peterborough is a perfect exmple of how his stratgey has held together so far; Peterborough voted Out by 62%, it's a Lab-Con marginal and Labour just nicked it off the Conservatives in 2017 yet Labour won it again in 2019 - an openly In party could simply never have done that I suggest.

I find it hard to see why so many ardent Remainers cannot see the difficulties of the Labour position - it demonstrates agian just how little insight many of them have into Leave voters pov. I think Corbyn has held an almost unholdable position together remarkably well on Brexit - although I know that the Official Position is that he's crap - I mean CRAP!! - on this as on everything else.
Assuming the above to true for the sake of the argument, what about the Tories going into hard Brexit mode and abandoning their soft Brexit and Remain voters? Not only are there many potential votes to be won, it's also an illustration of how parties are able to take much of their support for granted.

There's also the point about doing something because it's right rather than popular. Corbyn's seemingly spent most of his career on the fringe of political opinion, arguing against the majority view. It didn't bother him then, why now should he shy away from confronting the Leave argument in Labour's northern constituencies? He should be vocal in campaigning in those areas against Brexit, explaining how the voters were duped by Leave lies which will do them harm, not acquiescing in it - effectively enabling it.
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  #35255  
Old 21-10-2019, 06:27 AM
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Maybe if Corbyn had made a better job of persuading those 3 to 4 million voters of the downside to them of a Tory Brexit then he wouldn't find himself now in the position of having to keep them onside. I'm afraid my view is that his whole lacklustre attitude during and after the referendum towards to the EU allowed UKIP (and now the Brexit party) to muscle in on core Labour voters who no longer felt connected to them and now he's having to deal with a problem of his own making for which i have little sympathy. If this Tory Brexit goes through and the predicated hardships towards the working people actually happen history will not look kindly on Corbyn's efforts to stand up for them.
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Old 21-10-2019, 06:55 AM
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Maybe if Corbyn had made a better job of persuading those 3 to 4 million voters of the downside to them of a Tory Brexit then he wouldn't find himself now in the position of having to keep them onside. I'm afraid my view is that his whole lacklustre attitude during and after the referendum towards to the EU allowed UKIP (and now the Brexit party) to muscle in on core Labour voters who no longer felt connected to them and now he's having to deal with a problem of his own making for which i have little sympathy. If this Tory Brexit goes through and the predicated hardships towards the working people actually happen history will not look kindly on Corbyn's efforts to stand up for them.
Fine. I suspect you been blaming Corbyn for everything from white bread to VAR anyway.

Cruch time is coming now - Labour will seek to attach a referendum to Johnson's deal (up to now it would have lost and been pointless, as well as alienating any Labour leavers left)

We'll see who backs the referendum - if the DUP switch there's a chance at last of getting it through. Will Johnson accept the result though?
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Old 21-10-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NickP View Post
Fine. I suspect you been blaming Corbyn for everything from white bread to VAR anyway.
Oh stop playing this victim card, itís utterly pathetic!

What he is quite clearly blaming Corbin for is not making a more forceful stand during the referendum campaign. Do you disagree with that, itís a simple enough question? Most commentators, left or right, agreed that his position was at best ambivalent.
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Old 21-10-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Assuming the above to true for the sake of the argument, what about the Tories going into hard Brexit mode and abandoning their soft Brexit and Remain voters? Not only are there many potential votes to be won, it's also an illustration of how parties are able to take much of their support for granted.

There's also the point about doing something because it's right rather than popular. Corbyn's seemingly spent most of his career on the fringe of political opinion, arguing against the majority view. It didn't bother him then, why now should he shy away from confronting the Leave argument in Labour's northern constituencies? He should be vocal in campaigning in those areas against Brexit, explaining how the voters were duped by Leave lies which will do them harm, not acquiescing in it - effectively enabling it.
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Old 21-10-2019, 07:33 AM
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Corbyn and the labour left didn’t have a good campaign in the referendum. In just the same way that left the people’s vote to the centrists and the right.

I have no problem with corbyn rating the EU 7/10, indeed I think that was too generous. But what should have led from that was an impassioned rallying cry about staying in the EU to transform and overhaul things, to radically lead a movement of positive change.
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Old 21-10-2019, 07:35 AM
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Exactly. Thank you.
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