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  #35261  
Old 21-10-2019, 07:39 AM
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Whatever people think, it's up to Labour & Labour votes to stop Johnson now (although admittedly need the rest of the opposition too).

Would be ironic to see the DUP & Corbyn wander through the lobbies together.
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  #35262  
Old 21-10-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
I think where Labour has failed is in talking to Leave voters about how damaging different versions of Leave can be, however - at least that is the impression I get; because what were those Labour MPs doing yesterday, voting against scrutiny of Johnson’s deal?
I think it goes beyond Labour, the Remain side still struggles to cut through all the barrage of social media and right wing press about the ghastly EU and their fake plots to subjugate us like the Lisbon Treaty rubbish. Ever since the original campaign the establishment Remain side have focused on the economic issues. To be fair, when Rudd comes out like this it’s difficult not to...

“Our government's own assessments are that this will hurt the economy by 4-6% a year... but I still think it's the right thing to do because we had the referendum in 2016' says former Home Secretary, Amber Rudd”

BUT....they have rarely made the positive case ..... the billions that the EU gives us for projects in deprived communities that the UK government has ignored, the scientific breakthroughs funded by EU money, again, where successive UK governments have not acted, the leadership on workers protections, the leadership on safe standards, EU wide health provision when you get too drunk on holiday and fall off a balcony, practical things like forcing roaming charges to disappear on phones...the list is endless without getting into “middle class” stuff like kids being able to study and work in 27 other countries with no restrictions.

If we do get into confirmatory referendum territory the campaign must be radically different from all parties.
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  #35263  
Old 21-10-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Assuming the above to true for the sake of the argument, what about the Tories going into hard Brexit mode and abandoning their soft Brexit and Remain voters? Not only are there many potential votes to be won, it's also an illustration of how parties are able to take much of their support for granted.

There's also the point about doing something because it's right rather than popular. Corbyn's seemingly spent most of his career on the fringe of political opinion, arguing against the majority view. It didn't bother him then, why now should he shy away from confronting the Leave argument in Labour's northern constituencies? He should be vocal in campaigning in those areas against Brexit, explaining how the voters were duped by Leave lies which will do them harm, not acquiescing in it - effectively enabling it.
Question here though would be, Is there enough to make up for the losses from purusing them. No one really seems to be sure, whether or not the public has 'changed' its mind over the years since 2016 - Which is probably why the Brexit hardline and Remainer hardlines aren't actually as bold as their rhetoric would suggest.

If you were absolutely certain that a 2nd referendum would promote no change, you'd accept it. That kind of vindication would effectively render half the debate and argument irrelivent.
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  #35264  
Old 21-10-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Worksop Palace View Post
The fact is that Corbyn’s followers will never see any negatives in him so it pretty pointless discussing them
Of course they can.I want him as Prime Minister but believe that Labour should be backing remain in a second referendum.That is a negative to me of Corbyn's position.So what you post is false.


Secondly,what do you actually want him to do?

Support no deal?

Support Boris's deal?

Support May's deal?

Be for revoke like the Lib Dems?

Not support the idea of a full Customs Union which is what Labour did in the indicative votes?

What exactly would you or any Labour leader have actually done differently on Brexit so far?
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  #35265  
Old 21-10-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by meee View Post

Secondly,what do you actually want him to do?


What exactly would you or any Labour leader have actually done differently on Brexit so far?
Prior to the Referendum campaign: sack Seumas Milne and the rest of the CPGB inner cabinet for briefing in favour of Brexit.

During the Referendum Campaign backed Remain 100%.
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  #35266  
Old 21-10-2019, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruskin Old Boy View Post
Prior to the Referendum campaign: sack Seumas Milne and the rest of the CPGB inner cabinet for briefing in favour of Brexit.

During the Referendum Campaign backed Remain 100%.
Post referendum - not pretended unicorns exist. We know customs union with a real say is not possible. We know that CU without state aid / ECJ is not possible. We know the the actual options as Barnier’s ladder is there for all to see. Pick one option on that ladder and support it. Or if they are all unpalatable, say so and decide on remain or no deal and support that.
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  #35267  
Old 21-10-2019, 03:18 PM
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Flint now a real Red Tory.....

.@CarolineFlintMP tries to persuade Speaker Bercow to rule out of order - pre-emptively - any amendments to the Withdrawal Agreement Bill that would make Brexit subject to a confirmatory referendum or would seek to frustrate Brexit. Good luck with that!
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  #35268  
Old 21-10-2019, 03:49 PM
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It does seem odd, but I read a piece yesterday suggesting her constituents are firmly behind her.
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  #35269  
Old 21-10-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
CR why would a Labour supporter believe a Alt right Brexit, and let's face it those who ran the Leave campaign are Alt right as is the government and the government's Brexit, could possibly benefit them or be in tune with Labour values.

What part of racism, anti-manufacturing, removing rights, destroying our values and standing, ending international co-operation and importing cheap foreign labour should Labour sympathise with?

Brexit is wrong, Labour should lead its supporters into the light not sympathise with the dark within.

Their position should have always been get a deal have a confirmatory referendum.
This is a huge topic AJ and I can't really do it all justice but a few points as to why the EU is in no way any kind of radical or even progressive project and why it is pretty repellent to many on the left (even those who reluctantly voted in).

1. "Racism" - yes racists voted out but it's equally clear that many out voters aren't racist. The EU itself is a giganticly racist project - as it the concept of "Europe" itself - (what is 'continent' about Europe? It's basically West Asia, it is literally defined by (a) white and (b) Christian, nothing else). Free movement = the free movement of white people. The EU deal with Turkey to send Surian migrants back to Turkey, even if they make it to Greece is blatantly illegal and racist.

2. "Importing cheap foreign labour" = this literally is what "free movement of labour is about. This is intrinsic to the EU.

3. "Anti-manufacturing" - the UK manufacturing sector was destroyed during the 1980s and 1990s while the UK was a member of the EU. Interestingly the areas of the largest % of working class Labour voters who voted out are in precisely those places that were forcibly scrap-heaped by Thatcher. (New Labour's decision to stick two fingers up at those people plays a key role here)


4. "ending international co-operation" - I'm sorry AJ but this is just daft. (a) this won't end, the withdrawal negotiations actually are an example of it continuing but more importantly (b) this whole "international co-operation" thing is waved around as though EU politicians are dewy-eyed idealists who seek peace and harmony every time they meet up. This is just bullshit; the EU is Great Power politics by other means. Just look at how Germany and France destroyed the Greek economy and Greek democracy in order to save French and German bankers a few quid. But it's routine, the big powers use the EU to impose their will on the small powers, small nations club together to resist as best they can etc etc. It's better than war, but it's not "international co-operation" any more than the US stamping a shitty trade deal on the UK will be if the tories get their way - in fact of course the EU jhas already offered up the NHS as a tempting little morsel for US healthcare in the guise of TTIP (which ahs only failed to go ahead because of Donald Trump ffs).


5. "Their position should have always been get a deal have a confirmatory referendum."

Maybe. In any event, it's where they are now.
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  #35270  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
It does seem odd, but I read a piece yesterday suggesting her constituents are firmly behind her.
68% vote for leave in her constituency. Unsurprising that they support her leave arguments.
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  #35271  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:15 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
f Have you looked at the Peterboro numbers. The figures for Brexit and Tories combined. The vote was split Mrs May was leading the Tories and Brexit picked up the votes. The combined total was some 18% above the Laboud vote. With the Libs Dems picking up 8%.
I did look at the numbers, I also went to Peterborough to campaign for Labour. Yes, they won by the skin of their teeth - as I said. And of course it was precisely this sort of result that drove the tories into the arms of Dominic Cummings. And you could argue that a more remain Labour Party would have won more lib dem votes etc etc. But either way, this is a classic tory-Lab marginal, which went Labour during the Corbyn surge of 2017 by the thinnest of margins and which he held despite the fact that it was a big majority Brexit constituency. These are the sorts of seats Labour needs to hold and win to form a govt - this may be the result that actually stops Johnson's deal, it could be that close.
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  #35272  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:17 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Originally Posted by adrenalin john View Post
Who is standing up for European immigrants and British emigrants?

I am not a Labour voter, but I want a Labour party that wants to look after the vulnerable, those without a voice, not a Labour party that is concerned about pandering to the ignorance of a proportion of their vote who have been sold a pup.

Where is that leadership?
For the first time in a generation, we've actually got it and you're not going to vote for it. I'm genuinely baffled.

Just to add - Labour have urged the unilateral legalisation of all existing citizenship rights for both groups you've mentioned since the referendum practically - ie exactly what you say they haven't given you.
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  #35273  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:38 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Assuming the above to true for the sake of the argument, what about the Tories going into hard Brexit mode and abandoning their soft Brexit and Remain voters? Not only are there many potential votes to be won, it's also an illustration of how parties are able to take much of their support for granted.

There's also the point about doing something because it's right rather than popular. Corbyn's seemingly spent most of his career on the fringe of political opinion, arguing against the majority view. It didn't bother him then, why now should he shy away from confronting the Leave argument in Labour's northern constituencies? He should be vocal in campaigning in those areas against Brexit, explaining how the voters were duped by Leave lies which will do them harm, not acquiescing in it - effectively enabling it.
I share the Leadership's view that there aren't many tory remainer voters that matter to be won for Labour so electorally it's not a huge attraction, certainly not compared to the dangers of losing brexiteer labour voters.

Re Corbyn's campaign, I know it's axiomatic that everything is Corbyn's fault and these views are so firmly emotionally bedded in that it's really pointless to argue against them but Corbyn did campaign for Remain and was one of the few senior Labour politicians to do so. Can you remember a single intervention or speech or phrase from Alan Johnson who supposedly ran the Labour In campaign? Angela Eagle used Corbyn's performance during the referendum as a basis for her pathetic damp squib of a leadership challenge but had to concede the embarrassing fact that she had made almost no speeches on the referendum campaign herself.

Johnson, Eagle and the others were far too busy plotting their hapless coup and squabbling over who got which Shadow Cabinet job to get involved in the referendum campaign.

Most of the whining about Corbyn's referendum campaign comes from the official In campaign which was led by David Cameron who seemed surprised that Corbyn didn't want to share their message of how wonderful everything was and how this was a new era of shining prosperity. This is the same campaign that appointed people like Will Straw to key jobs and whos press team (all tories or New Labour) admitted afterwards that they never worked out how to deal with a hostile press because they'd never had to go up against one before.

The In campaign was shit - but the Labour remain vote held up to the same level that it had been at the start of the year, it was the tory remain vote that crumbled in the face of the out campaign and it was that crumble that led to the brexit victory. Personally I very much doubt that anyone could have won over the gnarley end of the working class labour brexit vote - but Corbyn did far better at holding his vote in line than Cameron did.

And of course all the people who have ever since put the boot into Corbyn for not miraculously "delivering" Labour brexit voters were the exact same people who spent the entire year running up to the referendum undermining, lampooning and seeking to destory Corbyn in the most vicious character assassination since Michael Foot in 1983. It's just bullshit really, not that anything will change their opinions of course. I have to just take consolation in the fact that they will now vote Lib dem or whatever and watch Boris Johnson cram the hardest of hard brexits down their throats.
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  #35274  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruskin Old Boy View Post
Prior to the Referendum campaign: sack Seumas Milne and the rest of the CPGB inner cabinet for briefing in favour of Brexit.

During the Referendum Campaign backed Remain 100%.
Granted not having Seamus Milne around in the first place would be a start.There's another one of those negatives that we apparently don't like to talk about.

Labour's official position in the referendum was remain.Corbyn went out and campaigned for remain.You can dispute all you want the amount of enthusiasm he used to do that,but that is what happened.
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  #35275  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:44 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Maybe if Corbyn had made a better job of persuading those 3 to 4 million voters of the downside to them of a Tory Brexit then he wouldn't find himself now in the position of having to keep them onside. I'm afraid my view is that his whole lacklustre attitude during and after the referendum towards to the EU allowed UKIP (and now the Brexit party) to muscle in on core Labour voters who no longer felt connected to them and now he's having to deal with a problem of his own making for which i have little sympathy. If this Tory Brexit goes through and the predicated hardships towards the working people actually happen history will not look kindly on Corbyn's efforts to stand up for them.

This is really a perfect example of the lazy, completely fact-free argument that passes for insight among the anti-Corbyn fanatics. UKIP got 3.9 million votes in 2015 - and yes many of them were working class norther Labour voters. But this was when the centrist nobodies ran the Labour Party and Corbyn hadn't even been heard of in Grimsby or Doncaster. After 2 years of Corbyn's leadership, almost that entire working class UKIP vote folded back into Labour. It's literally the factual opposite of your beliefs.

I know that your obsession with Corbyn means that facts are irrelevant so you will doubtless disregard the above so I'm just posting for anyone else who happens to read it.
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  #35276  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:44 PM
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I share the Leadership's view that there aren't many tory remainer voters that matter to be won for Labour so electorally it's not a huge attraction, certainly not compared to the dangers of losing brexiteer labour voters.

Re Corbyn's campaign, I know it's axiomatic that everything is Corbyn's fault and these views are so firmly emotionally bedded in that it's really pointless to argue against them but Corbyn did campaign for Remain and was one of the few senior Labour politicians to do so. Can you remember a single intervention or speech or phrase from Alan Johnson who supposedly ran the Labour In campaign? Angela Eagle used Corbyn's performance during the referendum as a basis for her pathetic damp squib of a leadership challenge but had to concede the embarrassing fact that she had made almost no speeches on the referendum campaign herself.

Johnson, Eagle and the others were far too busy plotting their hapless coup and squabbling over who got which Shadow Cabinet job to get involved in the referendum campaign.

Most of the whining about Corbyn's referendum campaign comes from the official In campaign which was led by David Cameron who seemed surprised that Corbyn didn't want to share their message of how wonderful everything was and how this was a new era of shining prosperity. This is the same campaign that appointed people like Will Straw to key jobs and whos press team (all tories or New Labour) admitted afterwards that they never worked out how to deal with a hostile press because they'd never had to go up against one before.

The In campaign was shit - but the Labour remain vote held up to the same level that it had been at the start of the year, it was the tory remain vote that crumbled in the face of the out campaign and it was that crumble that led to the brexit victory. Personally I very much doubt that anyone could have won over the gnarley end of the working class labour brexit vote - but Corbyn did far better at holding his vote in line than Cameron did.

And of course all the people who have ever since put the boot into Corbyn for not miraculously "delivering" Labour brexit voters were the exact same people who spent the entire year running up to the referendum undermining, lampooning and seeking to destory Corbyn in the most vicious character assassination since Michael Foot in 1983. It's just bullshit really, not that anything will change their opinions of course.
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  #35277  
Old 21-10-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Lingfield Eagle View Post
Maybe if Corbyn had made a better job of persuading those 3 to 4 million voters of the downside to them of a Tory Brexit then he wouldn't find himself now in the position of having to keep them onside. I'm afraid my view is that his whole lacklustre attitude during and after the referendum towards to the EU allowed UKIP (and now the Brexit party) to muscle in on core Labour voters who no longer felt connected to them and now he's having to deal with a problem of his own making for which i have little sympathy. If this Tory Brexit goes through and the predicated hardships towards the working people actually happen history will not look kindly on Corbyn's efforts to stand up for them.
I know this has pretty much been done for you,but could you quote the UKIP vote figures in 2015 and 2017 and explain why those figures lead you to the point of view in this post?
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Old 21-10-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
68% vote for leave in her constituency. Unsurprising that they support her leave arguments.
But on the specific point of not scrutinising Johnson's deal - that does seem odd.
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Old 21-10-2019, 04:57 PM
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I’m really not sure that all those UKIP votes in the north that Labour lost by 215 went straight back to Labour under Corbyn in 2017.

That’s certainly not what yougov found, unless the argument is that there simply were not very many Labour votes lost to UKIP by 2015.

See first chart in the link.

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Old 21-10-2019, 05:09 PM
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Apparently Jeremy Corbyn campaigned vigourously for remain. Can anyone provide me with a link that would support this assertion? My main memory is that the day after the vote he said that we should all “accept the vote and move on” ; lots of passion for Remain there then.
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