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  #41  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:14 AM
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It was obviously out of order to use that very very outdated phrase, being the BBS it becomes a political point scoring game and typically childish. Wrong is wrong!
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  #42  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
I'm sorry, you think it's fine that she said "n****r" and nobody thought anything of it?

And you think it is fine because of the Left burying their heads in the sand about anti-Semitism under Corbyn?

That doesn't really fit with your second sentence ... ? (And I'd like to see considerable more evidence of anti-Semitism in the left than I've seen to consider criticising anyone for saying n****r as hypocritical).
No, I think it's fine to talk about racism and the Labour party's reaction to racism within its ranks when talking about racism and the Tory parties reaction to racism within its ranks, particularly when the latter is being raised as an attack by supporters of the former.

I think what this Tory said was disgraceful and the prompt action taken by the Tory party was appropriate. I'm not convinced by the party political points being made by Labour supporters in response, many of whom have buried their heads or looked the other way or made excuses for the rise of anti-Semitism in Labour.

I think it's rank hypocrisy.
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  #43  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
What a load of shit this response is from the various Tories.

"But but but, what about all that anti-semetic stuff from Labour?!"

Well, let me address this:

  1. Saying "What about ... ?" to anything does not excuse the problem you are attempting to take attention away from.
  2. It is debatable that what Ken said was actually racist. So he was suspended pending investigation. What more do you expect?
  3. The rest of it is made up shite by the press.
  4. Racism is a more classically right wing stance. No matter how much you try and make it about the left.
So back to the matter at hand ... what is your response (and all the other whatabouters) to the actual blatant racism from the Tory MP, and the lack of any other Tory MPs telling her it was out of order at the time?
To be fair, you asked what is TM going to do about it? You have your answer now. The maximum she could. The only other thing that could happen is the Police get involved. The question in your opening post has been answered.

So, this thread either carries on repeating the same outcome and drifts down the list or it morphs into a discussion about racism in politics.

Not naming names, but I have heard first hand a Conservative MP using language that would be deemed racist even in the dark old days of the 60s and 70s, it was deplorable.

Likewise, the treatment by JC's bully boys towards Jewish MPs in the Labour party is equally deplorable.
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  #44  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Agreed. And to be fair, swift action has been taken on this one. The issue here is of one individual being a vile racist, and the Tory party has very quickly acted in a way that shows it considers her actions unacceptable. There are plenty of legitimate sticks to beat the Tories with, but here the only condemnation should be of the individual concerned.
Disagree. This MP would have been through countless selection processes, committees and hustings. All whilst cozying up to the big fish in order to climb the greasy pole. As such somebody, somewhere will have seen or heard actions or comments from this individual along similar lines before. It is simply unfathomable that the nature of character will not have revealed itself at at least one boozy smooze fest.

It therefore follows that whichever person - or more likely persons - witnessed such behaviour previously either chose to either ignore it, or did not feel that it was worth challenging. Either way, that's representative of this collection of people's mentality, and they in turn represent the Tory party.
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  #45  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tasty_snacks View Post
Disagree. This MP would have been through countless selection processes, committees and hustings. All whilst cozying up to the big fish in order to climb the greasy pole. As such somebody, somewhere will have seen or heard actions or comments from this individual along similar lines before. It is simply unfathomable that the nature of character will not have revealed itself at at least one boozy smooze fest.
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Ah, but my comment was based on the facts available, and I stick by it. Speculation does not alter it.
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  #46  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:25 AM
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Genuine question - can someone give me some examples of this oft mentioned anti semitism in the Labour Party? I've heard it mentioned a lot, but other than the comments from Livingstone about zionism I'm not sure I know of any examples. Cheers.
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:26 AM
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And yes, whilst it's of course deplorable that this MP made those comments, it's just as concerning that no-one challenged her at the time.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Ah, but my comment was based on the facts available, and I stick by it. Speculation does not alter it.
Anyone can repeat the facts, Maz. Where's your analytical mind?

Besides, the issue here is not of one Tory using this phrase. Several have done so before, really quite recently too.

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  #49  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Flakey View Post
A lot more than labour has done or will do about the anti white comments that shoot out if Diane Abbott s mouth on a far more frequent basis.

In fact the Tory has been given a suspension. A lot of people would like to see Abbott suspended too
On the end of a rope? Erm. .....
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
Genuine question - can someone give me some examples of this oft mentioned anti semitism in the Labour Party? I've heard it mentioned a lot, but other than the comments from Livingstone about zionism I'm not sure I know of any examples. Cheers.
This is a good overview

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You can google reviews of the book for synopsis and references of examples
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  #51  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:40 AM
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This is a good overview

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You can google reviews of the book for synopsis and references of examples
Thanks. Not really interested enough to buy the book, and relying on reviews isn't really ideal, but from what I can tell from briefly scanning it, this seems to be focused on the left's views on Israel/Palestine. If so, I struggle with the depiction of that as anti-semitism.
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  #52  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
This is a good overview

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Thanks. I had a similar question as have never really seen other examples. I think, perhaps naively, that I assumed the Labour party could not be capable of such things.

More research required.
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  #53  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:41 AM
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More research required.
Indeed.
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  #54  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:45 AM
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This is an interesting review:

Quote:
This was a very unsatisfying read. For some months I had been asking friends and colleagues for evidence – hard, factual evidence - of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. But all I got were rumours and worried references to official inquiries (three of them!). When this book was published I was told it contained all I needed to know. Not only does the book have Corbyn’s name in the title and a picture of Corbyn on the front cover but the blurb warns: ‘There is a sickness at the heart of Left-wing British politics, and even though predominantly below the surface it is silently spreading, becoming ever more malignant.’ Scary stuff! However, the title is very misleading. I don’t know why – apart from sensationalism – Corbyn is named in the title as at most he has only a walk-on part here.
Another problem is that the book, with its appearance of intellectual neutrality, actually hides its Right-wing credentials. Dave Rich, according to the New York Times (11 September 2016) is an Associate Research Fellow at the Pears Institute for the Study of Anti-Semitism at Birkbeck College. He is also Deputy Director of Communications at the Community Security Trust, a group that ‘monitors anti-Semitic incidents and provides protection services’: as part of his work for the CST he ‘briefs ministers, MPs, civil servants and police officers about antisemitism’. Clearly he not only has an academic interest in monitoring anti-Semitism, but a business interest in promoting awareness – some would say paranoia. (Or is it just paranoid of me to think this?) But more importantly the book is published by Biteback Press – a press owned by Michael Ashcroft (Baron Ashcroft), former Deputy Chairman of the Tory Party, and managed by Iain Dale, a one-time Tory Parliamentary candidate for Norfolk North.
The tactic of the Right (and of this book) is clear: it is to unsettle British Jews on the Left and if possible to move them into the Tory Party or at least into Blairite New Labour. The working strategy is to discomfort and possibly unseat Jeremy Corbyn and prevent Labour developing under his leadership. In this, anti-Semitism has been very effectively weaponised and turned against the Labour Party. If anything, Corbyn is condemned for the company he keeps, but Rich produces absolutely no evidence of anti-Semitic statements or actions by Corbyn.

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  #55  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:47 AM
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I detest tories immensely but having read her comment I cannot see how on earth it is taken to be racist. The word is offensive when used to describe someone or a group. The context she used it in was never aimed at or intended to be derogatory towards Afro Caribbeans or any other ethnic group. It's not a word I would use as it does not form part of my vocabulary but are people seriously offended by the context of its use in this case? To me it's PC gone mad. Like black board being a chalk board. Advise her not to use it again in any context. Will we soon have to remove the word black from our vocabulary?

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  #56  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:50 AM
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To me it's PC gone mad. Like black board being a chalk board.
It's really a totally different thing to that. A black board is called a black board because it's the colour black.

The n word though has a long history of dehumanising and abuse.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:55 AM
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So, other than a book of dubious political origin and motivation, can someone point me in the direction of the entrenched anti-semitism in the Labour party?
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
It's really a totally different thing to that. A black board is called a black board because it's the colour black.

The n word though has a long history of dehumanising and abuse.
I know that but the word n***** was used in literature and different contexts BEFORE it became offensive. It was not used in a demeaning way by this woman. Hence my facetious comment about black. HoweVery if you call an African a ba***** It is not racist. It become racist if you prefix it with black. That is why I suggest banning the word. BTW it is no longer called a blackboard it is chalk board. Even though it's b****
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  #59  
Old 11-07-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
Thanks. Not really interested enough to buy the book, and relying on reviews isn't really ideal, but from what I can tell from briefly scanning it, this seems to be focused on the left's views on Israel/Palestine. If so, I struggle with the depiction of that as anti-semitism.
Taking traditional anti-Semitic smears and replacing the word "Jew" with the word "Zionist" doesn't magically dismiss the bigotry.

Calling Jews "zios" (Oxford Labour club) doesn't mean you aren't a bigot.

I'm on mobile but there's a ton of articles you can google on the issues of anti-Semitism on the left. If you just dismkss as "oh it's Israel it's fine" you're turning a blind eye IMO.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:02 PM
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No, I think it's fine to talk about racism and the Labour party's reaction to racism within its ranks when talking about racism and the Tory parties reaction to racism within its ranks, particularly when the latter is being raised as an attack by supporters of the former.

I think what this Tory said was disgraceful and the prompt action taken by the Tory party was appropriate. I'm not convinced by the party political points being made by Labour supporters in response, many of whom have buried their heads or looked the other way or made excuses for the rise of anti-Semitism in Labour.

I think it's rank hypocrisy.
I'd agree with some of this, and to be honest I nearly said in my first post that I agreed with KOW that party politics were better off out of it.

Please read back the actual question you responded to with "its fine" to understand my earlier post. You might understand why I responded how I did then.

I think you and a few others are using my posts to make a point that is not a response to anything I actually said.

As for the hypocrisy etc - I'm still not convinced that a lot of the anti-Semetic stuff wasn't made up / over-egged by the press - although this may be because I didn't keep up with the story at the time - I found all press distastleful to read at that time. I certainly don't think it is hypocritical to say that using the word "n****r" is beyond the pale. Although I quite agree that any Labour response to anti-Sematism should be immediate and strong.

What I still think is the most disturbing about THIS incident is that nobody said anything at the time. Can you imagine if someone said that word in front of you? Would you let it slide?
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