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  #81  
Old 20-02-2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by johnnybacaro View Post
From an issue perspective, I personally identify with TIG more than any other party.
Shame they're not a party, then.
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  #82  
Old 20-02-2019, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I genuinely do think someone should do it on a moral level. I would say the same if someone defected to Labour. I also don't care if it is damaging to Labour, it's the right thing to do.
You can make a case for that on a moral level, I guess, but I feel strongly that it shouldn't be enforced. We elect an MP, not a party. The fact that a large portion of the electorate might think they're electing a party doesn't change that. I say the same when the PM stands down for whatever reason - the new party leader doesn't have to call a general election. People will whinge about the new PM being unelected, but we elect a Parliament not a PM.

Parties have too much power over MPs as it is, and new parties are already too hard to start under FPTP. Forcing a by-election when an MP resigns from their party only serves to entrench the two party system.

I want my MP to vote with their conscience and represent their constituents, not just act as a delegate for the party leadership or membership and compromise their beliefs. Either can change radically in the course of a parliament, and I don't want them to be able to pressure MPs even more than they already do.
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  #83  
Old 20-02-2019, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybacaro View Post
From an issue perspective, I personally identify with TIG more than any other party. I think Anna soubry gives them some credibility. She was one of the few conservatives who i respected even when I didnt agree with her.
Sarah woolaston for me.

Went for leave then looked at the facts and thought ‘**** that’ and defected to remain. She speaks sense and reason. I’m yet to see her have a clown moment.

And I agree. If they form a party they represent my views far more than the tories or labour at the moment. Slightly tempted to join up.
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  #84  
Old 20-02-2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
I agree
I disagree. We elect an Mp on behalf of our constituency. It’s the entire point of our representative democracy. Sure I appreciate it’s not as well understood as it should be but it’s nevertheless the point of our democracy.
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  #85  
Old 21-02-2019, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JDawg View Post
Europe has been a source of political angst for 40 years. It winged Wilson, split Foot’s Labour Party, got Thatcher, winged Major, meant Miliband wasn’t elected, got Cameron and will get May. Its also fracturing the Labour and Tory party.

What will they do once we’ve left?
Tell the truth about why Whitehall's doing things? Hmm, no, sounds unlikely.
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  #86  
Old 21-02-2019, 01:20 AM
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I see Soubry has said she supported austerity. Leslie has said he is anti-austerity. Neither of them would join a vote of no confidence against May.

I wouldn't have thought any Labour voter would vote for a party/MP that didn't join a no confidence vote against May.

If they split over the austerity thing will they become The Independent Group of Independents TIGI, The Group of Independent Fashionistas (TGIF) and the We Used to be Independent But Now We're Not But Next Week We May Be Again.
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  #87  
Old 21-02-2019, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
You can make a case for that on a moral level, I guess, but I feel strongly that it shouldn't be enforced. We elect an MP, not a party. The fact that a large portion of the electorate might think they're electing a party doesn't change that. I say the same when the PM stands down for whatever reason - the new party leader doesn't have to call a general election. People will whinge about the new PM being unelected, but we elect a Parliament not a PM.

Parties have too much power over MPs as it is, and new parties are already too hard to start under FPTP. Forcing a by-election when an MP resigns from their party only serves to entrench the two party system.

I want my MP to vote with their conscience and represent their constituents, not just act as a delegate for the party leadership or membership and compromise their beliefs. Either can change radically in the course of a parliament, and I don't want them to be able to pressure MPs even more than they already do.
I disagree, I understand we are voting for a person not a party but we are very often in fact probably in the majority of cases voting for that person based on the party that they represent. We are voting on how we think that they will act and vote in parliament and the only knowledge we have on this is via their party’s manifesto.


If these MP,s think that they have done what their constituents would have wanted they should have no fear of standing as an independent.
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  #88  
Old 21-02-2019, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redandblue View Post
I disagree, I understand we are voting for a person not a party but we are very often in fact probably in the majority of cases voting for that person based on the party that they represent. We are voting on how we think that they will act and vote in parliament and the only knowledge we have on this is via their party’s manifesto.


If these MP,s think that they have done what their constituents would have wanted they should have no fear of standing as an independent.
How would any new political party ever get started if people who resigned to join it had to then win a by-election?

If you think about it, your thinking dooms us to Labour vs Conservatives for eternity.
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  #89  
Old 21-02-2019, 07:20 AM
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The UK so needs PR. It’s so obvious that UKpoliticians are unable to talk to each other and make compromises. In PR you have to do this or the country doesn’t function.
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  #90  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
You can make a case for that on a moral level, I guess, but I feel strongly that it shouldn't be enforced. We elect an MP, not a party. The fact that a large portion of the electorate might think they're electing a party doesn't change that. I say the same when the PM stands down for whatever reason - the new party leader doesn't have to call a general election. People will whinge about the new PM being unelected, but we elect a Parliament not a PM.

Parties have too much power over MPs as it is, and new parties are already too hard to start under FPTP. Forcing a by-election when an MP resigns from their party only serves to entrench the two party system.

I want my MP to vote with their conscience and represent their constituents, not just act as a delegate for the party leadership or membership and compromise their beliefs. Either can change radically in the course of a parliament, and I don't want them to be able to pressure MPs even more than they already do.
Agree, we elect MPs not parties. Often the individual candidates are unknown and effectively anonymous, but the fact still remains that it's the individual whose name is on the ballot.
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  #91  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
The UK so needs PR. It’s so obvious that UKpoliticians are unable to talk to each other and make compromises. In PR you have to do this or the country doesn’t function.
Totally. The problem as we all know is, in a two party system, any party with a majority is not going to enact it.

The only way of getting PR is via a hung parliament, or if the two main parties somehow miraculously split into smaller parties of roughly equal numbers of seats (which is unlikely under FPTP).
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  #92  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
The UK so needs PR. It’s so obvious that UKpoliticians are unable to talk to each other and make compromises. In PR you have to do this or the country doesn’t function.
Isn't that what we've got now? A hung parliament which requires compromises?

Unfortunately the trouncing the Libs got in 2015 demonstrates most voters are too thick to comprehend what a hung parliament and coalition government requires.
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  #93  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Agree, we elect MPs not parties. Often the individual candidates are unknown and effectively anonymous, but the fact still remains that it's the individual whose name is on the ballot.
And the party's name is also on the ballot paper.
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  #94  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post
Just as an example - can you tell me the "hard left" policy from the 2017 Labour Party manifesto that most frightens you?
I hoped someone would answer this.
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  #95  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:28 AM
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I've sometimes wondered whether one of the reasons so many voters voted leave in 2016 was that a Tory PM was telling them to vote remain.

There's a visceral dislike of Tories and Tory policies amongst chunks of the electorate - sharing a platform with the Tories over the Scots referendum may have wiped out Labour in Scotland for instance.

It will be hard for an Independent Group containing Tories to get votes where Tories are anathema. Tribal, yes, but there you are. There's a bit of anybody but Labour effect too but it is probably less entrenched or widespread.

In truth, aren't the Tiggers really a Remain party? If we either Remain or leave with a deal what becomes of a party with no more purpose?
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  #96  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:32 AM
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If we ever did get PR the danger is the largest party would be a pro-Brexit, drum-beating Nationalist xenophobic party, anti"welfare", pro-"Our Boys" and very very anti-Islam.
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  #97  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rhino_mik View Post
I hoped someone would answer this.
I thought this article was good, and pretty much sums up my feelings on this.

Quote:
Corbyn’s party has no leftmost boundary. There is no form of radical socialism that it deems taboo. It welcomes people who wave hammer and sickle flags, whether they are unaware of atrocities committed under that banner or simply relaxed about them. It is not controversial in the Labour leader’s office to see the fall of the Berlin Wall as a sad event. Corbyn’s inner circle includes former senior Communist party members and Stalinists.

A lot more than seven Labour MPs think Britain would be badly governed by such people and that the levers of state power – the army, police and security services – must never come under their hands.

The usual defence against charges that the party has been captured by extremists is to wave the 2017 election manifesto. It pledges nothing more sinister than a spot of light renationalisation, which is meant to prove that the whole project would look centrist by the standards of continental Europe. If it seems ultra-left it is only because Margaret Thatcher sent Britain hurtling off to the right.

Many Labour moderates suspect the trajectory is to a darker place, and it is more than a hunch. Their view is based on the Corbyn’s past associations, familiarity with the tactics of the hard left at local party level and the invective of online trolls. But that is thin evidence in the court of members’ opinion.

The leader’s testimony as a mild-mannered peacenik is more persuasive. So the question of what Corbynism really means has been parked. The model could be anywhere between Venezuelan socialism and Swedish social democracy. It can sound revolutionary for whipping up passions at a rally and reasonable for reassuring swing voters. It wants to abolish capitalism at the demo but only to reform it on the doorstep.
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  #98  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:41 AM
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I thought this article was good, and pretty much sums up my feelings on this.



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Of course you do. It was written to agree with you.
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  #99  
Old 21-02-2019, 08:44 AM
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Of course you do. It was written to agree with you.
I'm not saying you have to agree with it. rhino_mik wanted an answer to CR's question, and that article expressed well my answer to that question.
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Old 21-02-2019, 08:54 AM
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I'm not saying you have to agree with it. rhino_mik wanted an answer to CR's question, and that article expressed well my answer to that question.
But actually, it's propaganda designed to fit your view that if Corbyn was PM in some way that would endanger "National Security". That Corbyn's Labour is really run by a secret revolutionary cartel who are pretending to be reasonable but want to impose a one-party communist state on us all the moment they get their hands on the "levers of power". What a load of specious nonsense - designed to agree with the specious nonsense we have seen you spouting here for days.

A Corbyn Government might endanger vested interests certainly. But probably not as many as I'd like.
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