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  #81  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:48 AM
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I hope the new leader is good, I have voted Lib Dem before but the tuition fees and then the homophobic leader has meant it will be a while before I trust them again.
The biggest problem is the FPTP system, I've never lived in a marginal seat, always been 10k+ for both Tory or Labour, so like huge numbers of the public we become disenfranchised by the system.
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  #82  
Old 02-07-2019, 12:40 PM
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Do Lib Dems still support Austerity and also student tuition fees?
Coalition is often used by dye in the wool lefties as a stick to beat the LDs. For all the reasons mentioned earlier, it has increasingly little cut through. It's now more of a nub to gently prod.

Less and less voters say they haven't forgiven Lib Dems for the coalition - I think less than 1 in 6 at last Yougov count, and that was a few months before the local and European elections.

More telling still, more people say they would never vote for Cons and Lab than LDs (see May 2019 Yougov poll). Crucially for us, the vast majority of people who would never vote Lib Dem are leavers who are inherently pro Brexit and/or authoritarian in their outlook, and already fall into that 1 in 6 mentioned above. There's little point chasing those people because they fundamentally conflict with our core values, especially when there's a bigger, more fluid pond to fish in.
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  #83  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:48 PM
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It's not. See To view the link you have to Register or Login.
That is a hilarious post. They didn't "force" the Tories to vote for anything. Scrapping ID cards & scaling back the DNA database were in the Tory manifesto! And the social housing claim is false.
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  #84  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:44 PM
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That is a hilarious post. They didn't "force" the Tories to vote for anything. Scrapping ID cards & scaling back the DNA database were in the Tory manifesto! And the social housing claim is false.
Parties break manifesto pledges all the time. Especially so in Government majorities, when they don't even have the restriction of being a much smaller junior member of a coalition having to flex priorities. In any event, 'scaling back' is not the same as abandoning.

Biggest increase in social housing in 30 years (and 70k empty homes also brought back into use) is not a false claim at all. To view the link you have to Register or Login

Glad you find the other things - such as legalising gay marriage - hilarious. I'm sure the Tories would have done that of their own volition, too.
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  #85  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:03 AM
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I can't forgive the Lib Dems for allowing the hideous ideological cuts to welfare that took place. I know the argument people make is along the lines of 'oh they weren't happy about letting such things through, it's the price of being in coalition', but it means nothing to me. They had the ability to hold the Tories to account far more than they did, and that's the reason a lot of people don't like the Lib Dems. People died due to the cuts that took place, and untold numbers of people were living dealing with the consequences. They are just as much to blame for what took place as the Tories are due to being complicit. They knew it was wrong but chose to do nothing about it.
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  #86  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:10 AM
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I hope you apply the same logic to the Iraq invasion so steer clear of Labour, too.
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  #87  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:13 AM
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I assume you apply the same logic to Iraq invasion so steer clear of Labour, too.
Labour before Corbyn, undoubtedly. But then again Labour weren't the party that oversaw the period I'm talking about.

I saw the effects of it first hand, my local MP was absolutely bloody useless (Brake) and quite frankly didn't seem to care about what was going on. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same about the treatment of the disabled. It was absolutely disgusting what went on, and I'm still angry about it to this day.

And given Swinson's voting record and intentions of further possible coalitions, I don't feel that they have changed at all, personally.

Last edited by TennesseeKing; 03-07-2019 at 12:15 AM.
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  #88  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:27 AM
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Labour before Corbyn, undoubtedly. But then again Labour weren't the party that oversaw the period I'm talking about.

I saw the effects of it first hand, my local MP was absolutely bloody useless (Brake) and quite frankly didn't seem to care about what was going on. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same about the treatment of the disabled. It was absolutely disgusting what went on, and I'm still angry about it to this day.
There are nearly 70 current Labour MPs who were serving in 2003.

I joined the party in 2016 as a result of the EU referendum. I did so because we're facing an existential crisis that'll make austerity look like loose change down the back of the sofa, and the LDs are the only national party saying something about that.

But I do get your point. Whilst I wasn't a member at the time - ironically I voted for Gordon Brown in 2010 - I'm not sure I could've stomached some of things the party did in coalition. Tens of thousands of members didn't, and left. It's only since then that new members have been won over.

If Labour can be a different party between what it was then, and what it is now, even with a significant portion of elected representatives who were in place at the time, hopefully you can accept that the same might also be true of other parties too.
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  #89  
Old 03-07-2019, 12:34 AM
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There are nearly 70 current Labour MPs who were serving in 2003.

I joined the party in 2016 as a result of the EU referendum. I did so because we're facing an existential crisis that'll make austerity look like loose change down the back of the sofa, and the LDs are the only national party saying something about that.

But I do get your point. Whilst I wasn't a member at the time - ironically I voted for Gordon Brown in 2010 - I'm not sure I could've stomached some of things the party did in coalition. Tens of thousands of members didn't, and left. It's only since then that new members have been won over.

If Labour can be a different party between what it was then, and what it is now, even with a significant portion of elected representatives who were in place at the time, hopefully you can accept that the same might also be true of other parties too.
For sure, but ^ I edited the post above this one with a line about Swinson being the main reason as to why I'm not sure that's likely to change, and why I am hugely skeptical about whether it's likely. And in complete honesty I have a rather large level of dislike for Tom Brake for reasons I can't/don't really want to discuss on here, meaning I'd never vote Lib Dem all the while he's still my local representative anyway.

I'm probably somewhere between Corbyn's Labour and the Greens in my views. Not really a huge fan of Corbyn as leader but I like their policies. The Greens probably represent what I want more than any other party though (environmental policies etc).

I have nothing against Lib Dem members btw, I completely understand that most people who vote for them now are decent folk that genuinely want positive change and would've been appalled by what went on too. It is purely just some of the representatives are very much not to my taste.

I think we can all agree though that bringing an end to the farce that is Brexit which will only cause more misery, as you mentioned, is vitally important first of all.
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  #90  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:37 AM
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Which of the two candidates in stronger on rebalancing the wealth and economy towards the smaller towns and regions under pressure? The party best at helping the north, Midlands, Wales, coastal towns etc will be the one that gets my vote.
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  #91  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:47 AM
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Which of the two candidates in stronger on rebalancing the wealth and economy towards the smaller towns and regions under pressure? The party best at helping the north, Midlands, Wales, coastal towns etc will be the one that gets my vote.
But how do you do that? Outside of a command economy, you can't really buck the market.
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  #92  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:52 AM
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Very difficult but green energy provides the best opportunity in a lifetime and if combined with better transport plus the use of the states' funding capabilities -NHS, universities, defence and utilities it could work to move it in the right direction. It won't completely equalise things because London, Oxford, Edinburgh, Bristol and Cambridge (amongst others) have too much natural dynamism and advantages.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:12 AM
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But how do you do that? Outside of a command economy, you can't really buck the market.
You can’t. But you can make vacuous promises to do it, and that’s maybe what is missing here.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:40 AM
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For sure, but ^ I edited the post above this one with a line about Swinson being the main reason as to why I'm not sure that's likely to change, and why I am hugely skeptical about whether it's likely. And in complete honesty I have a rather large level of dislike for Tom Brake for reasons I can't/don't really want to discuss on here, meaning I'd never vote Lib Dem all the while he's still my local representative anyway.

I'm probably somewhere between Corbyn's Labour and the Greens in my views. Not really a huge fan of Corbyn as leader but I like their policies. The Greens probably represent what I want more than any other party though (environmental policies etc).

I have nothing against Lib Dem members btw, I completely understand that most people who vote for them now are decent folk that genuinely want positive change and would've been appalled by what went on too. It is purely just some of the representatives are very much not to my taste.

I think we can all agree though that bringing an end to the farce that is Brexit which will only cause more misery, as you mentioned, is vitally important first of all.
In many ways labour gained votes from the libdems after 2010 because of the coalition even though their manifesto pledge to cut spending was about where we ended up. Being in opposition they were able to oppose unpopular policies but didn't have to spell out where their cuts would come from.
I get even more frustrated when I hear people who voted Tory in 2015 citing student fees and austerity as it would clearly have been much worse had the Tories been a majority government.
Labour have seemingly tried to be non-commital on brexit but it's such a polarised issue they have lost support to the libs/green for not being remain enough and the brexit party for not being leave enough.
In terms of climate change they are perceived as being behind the libdems and greens and their handling of anti-Semitism has been clumsy (personally I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic but his handling of the issue means that many voters do)
Lastly labour have mooted a policy on inheritance tax that would give a lifetime allowance (including gifts) of 125k. Regardless of right/wrong I think this will shift many voters particularly in the SE away from them probably in favour of the libs/greens.
If the libs/greens could form an effective alliance on brexit we could easily see them gaining a seat in government (maybe alongside the SNP) as labour and the Tories lose support.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:42 AM
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You can’t. But you can make vacuous promises to do it, and that’s maybe what is missing here.
So you are saying that you can't help them? What would you suggest then? Accept everyone is going to move southeastwards and let the North and Wales just whither on the vine?
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:20 AM
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You can make gestures.


But can you change the complete economic geography of the country in a way that makes economic and social sense? I doubt it.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:22 AM
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That is a hilarious post. They didn't "force" the Tories to vote for anything. Scrapping ID cards & scaling back the DNA database were in the Tory manifesto! And the social housing claim is false.
Well, I can say first hand that the pupil premium happened because the Lib Dems were in coalition; and I'm pretty clear the same is true for the increase in the personal tax allowance.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:24 AM
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So you are saying that you can't help them? What would you suggest then? Accept everyone is going to move southeastwards and let the North and Wales just whither on the vine?
Well the ONS moved to Newport, which went very badly indeed.

The BBC have moved to Salford. Which hasn’t been a bed of roses either.
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:33 AM
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I can't forgive the Lib Dems for allowing the hideous ideological cuts to welfare that took place. I know the argument people make is along the lines of 'oh they weren't happy about letting such things through, it's the price of being in coalition', but it means nothing to me. They had the ability to hold the Tories to account far more than they did, and that's the reason a lot of people don't like the Lib Dems. People died due to the cuts that took place, and untold numbers of people were living dealing with the consequences. They are just as much to blame for what took place as the Tories are due to being complicit. They knew it was wrong but chose to do nothing about it.
Yes agreed, it smacks of, I was just following orders..

Not very liberal at all and rightly decimated by a vengeful populous
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:38 AM
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Labour before Corbyn, undoubtedly. But then again Labour weren't the party that oversaw the period I'm talking about.

I saw the effects of it first hand, my local MP was absolutely bloody useless (Brake) and quite frankly didn't seem to care about what was going on. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same about the treatment of the disabled. It was absolutely disgusting what went on, and I'm still angry about it to this day.

And given Swinson's voting record and intentions of further possible coalitions, I don't feel that they have changed at all, personally.
It's a shame, and I don't begrudge him retirement, that Cable is 75..

Let's not forget, he himself lost his Twickenham seat in 2015.

As a wily old veteran, he has helped, as a steward, to return the Libs to respectability and they made admirable inroads in the recent Euro elections.

Swinson would do well to heed the warnings of the past
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