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  #61  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:46 PM
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Many thanks Adlers. Much appreciated.
I possibly have more sympathy for medical consultants faced with these tax bills than some other highly paid people (Boris comes to mind), especially the one who carried out surgery successfully on me, curing a condition that typically reduces life expectancy by ten years.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:25 PM
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Many thanks Adlers. Much appreciated.
I possibly have more sympathy for medical consultants faced with these tax bills than some other highly paid people (Boris comes to mind), especially the one who carried out surgery successfully on me, curing a condition that typically reduces life expectancy by ten years.
So the **** the engineer who designed the automatic braking system that saved another person’s life?

So **** the guys who ran the lab that carried out the research into whatever life saving drug you care to mention?

And so on.
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  #63  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
And with NI in particular employers can force people into bogus self employment to avoid 13.7% employer contribution. (As well as avoiding sick pay, maternity rights and paid holidays). Apparently that costs us £4bn a year in lost NI.
IR35 has forced many people working in the public sector into such roles since April 2017. Many people have been deemed as 'employed' (inside IR35) without most of the benefits that a true employee would get - sick and holiday pay etc.)

It's proposed to be extended to the private sector from April 2020, despite a dedicated campaign to alert MPs to how stupid an idea it is and HMRC losing the vast majority of cases that are going to court.
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  #64  
Old 08-08-2019, 08:59 PM
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Employers have to determine the self employed status of contractors, not the contractor.

So if they do anything naughty HMRC go for them.

(In any event the main naughtiness/mischief here - and why the law is changing - is contractors taking the piss, not the employers)
You realise that this is the line that HMRC are taking - it's all contractors fault, they're really employees - wheras they are losing most cases, based partly on their own employment test (CEST) which they said was tested and then they got rid of the testing scripts/papers, so nothing can be verified.

It now requires those assessed as inside IR35 to go to court to fight their case.

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"If you are a genuine professional contractor, freelancer, interim or consultant who is in business on your own account, you should have nothing to fear from IR35. This is so long as you take the time to understand how the legislation works and apply best practice to ensure it does not apply to you, and have a defence prepared if investigated by HMRC."
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  #65  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:04 PM
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This is a tricky one. For all those who say tax doesn’t lead to behavioural change what’s happening in the NHS is a very live example of how it does.

However the rest of us have had to suck it up, so I am not entirely sure why doctors shouldn’t. It’s all a bit first world problems.

For instance, here’s an extract from the Guardian reporting on this

“Some NHS staff were reported to have had to remortgage their homes to cover their tax bills, while others were faced with the choice of cutting their hours, opting out of the pension scheme, or taking early retirement.”

There is of course another option, pay the ******* tax.
Alternatively, many doctors can decide not to undertake the overtime and not incur the tax.

This is what many have done and, guess what is one of the consequences?

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  #66  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:07 PM
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So as I said I have little sympathy. These are people who can afford to pay the tax and choose not to. But at the same time it does rather show the behavioural change affect of tax rises.
But if they choose not to do the additional work, you understand the consequences for the whole country? (i.e. longer waiting lists etc.)
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:12 PM
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Why is people leaving a business any less of a threat to those businesses than it is to the NHS? Why are those businesses any more prepared than the NHS is? This law was announced in July 2015 with effect from 2016. It was expected to raise over £1bn a year from 2020. At the time the general view was this is a good plan, these people can afford to contribute more.

Every business should have a succession plan, certainly but when you start to see rapid behavioural change, in this case losing senior people at an unexpected rate, those succession plans are seriously stretched. You cannot magic five years of experience into people just like that, whether they be a doctor or an engineer or whatever. There are negative consequences on the business.
Have you had any dealings with NHS human resources planning?

Yes, so a private sector business may struggle, change tack, or go out of business.

The point about the NHS is that it cannot just say in (for example) Croydon 'sorry, we've not got enough Consultant Orthopaedic Surgeons, so we're going to stop doing orthopaedic surgery'.
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:23 PM
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You realise that this is the line that HMRC are taking - it's all contractors fault, they're really employees - wheras they are losing most cases, based partly on their own employment test (CEST) which they said was tested and then they got rid of the testing scripts/papers, so nothing can be verified.

It now requires those assessed as inside IR35 to go to court to fight their case.

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"If you are a genuine professional contractor, freelancer, interim or consultant who is in business on your own account, you should have nothing to fear from IR35. This is so long as you take the time to understand how the legislation works and apply best practice to ensure it does not apply to you, and have a defence prepared if investigated by HMRC."
We have literally hundreds of contractors. They are all basically employees.

Guess who gets to decide their status from April.

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  #69  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:44 PM
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:47 PM
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We have literally hundreds of contractors. They are all basically employees.

Guess who gets to decide their status from April.

You may have 'hundreds of contractors' and many of them may be 'basically employees', but this is not the case universally.

The current implementation of the IR35 system is based on the false premise that all 'contractors' basically are employees and wanted to get all the benefits that employees get while being paid far more.

Well, that's not the case; HMRC has created the next PPI scandal and the treasury is ignoring the reality of what's going through the courts. It's even ignoring its own CEST tool:-

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Old 09-08-2019, 07:01 AM
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IR35 has forced many people working in the public sector into such roles since April 2017. Many people have been deemed as 'employed' (inside IR35) without most of the benefits that a true employee would get - sick and holiday pay etc.)

It's proposed to be extended to the private sector from April 2020, despite a dedicated campaign to alert MPs to how stupid an idea it is and HMRC losing the vast majority of cases that are going to court.
I'm not overly familiar with the workings of IR35 although I've seen a few cases at work that have irritated people, particularly in IT jobs.

My ire was aimed at the construction industry, particularly with the one sided employer biased nature of the CIS scheme. The lads working for the sub contractors, even those who have been with the contractor for years, get no sick pay, paid holidays, bank holidays or contributions to pensions even by auto enrolment. They don't get paid if they can't work because of ice, wind, rain or heat and can be sent home early without pay in those conditions. You can be laid off at a moment's notice for example if the trades before them haven't finished. Some employers do put you on the books so you get holidays and pension contributions so it can be done.

The parcels delivery industry has big issues too.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:23 AM
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I'm not overly familiar with the workings of IR35 although I've seen a few cases at work that have irritated people, particularly in IT jobs.

My ire was aimed at the construction industry, particularly with the one sided employer biased nature of the CIS scheme. The lads working for the sub contractors, even those who have been with the contractor for years, get no sick pay, paid holidays, bank holidays or contributions to pensions even by auto enrolment. They don't get paid if they can't work because of ice, wind, rain or heat and can be sent home early without pay in those conditions. You can be laid off at a moment's notice for example if the trades before them haven't finished. Some employers do put you on the books so you get holidays and pension contributions so it can be done.

The parcels delivery industry has big issues too.
I think this thread demonstrates the issues with employment vs. self-employment in a nutshell and the result is that, as far as an economic approach, several issues have been conflated into a 'one size fits all' implementation approach by the current government, considering all flexible workers as 'deemed employees' (i.e. their determination of their employment status is driven mainly by a desire to 'avoid paying tax').

(A) In many industries, the push towards self-employment was a company-led activity and seen as a way that companies could divest themselves of not only the need to pay employers NI, sick pay, holiday pay etc., but also a means to create a more flexible workforce (often on zero hours contracts).

This was, quite rightly, seen as denigrating the rights of the individual (no longer an employee). I think we have seen the tide turn with this, in recent times, with the about-face in enforcing zero hours contracts as an example. This is the case in the construction industry and delivery industries.

(B) In the case of the BBC employees (presenters etc.), many were told it was the only way they would be engaged in the future. Not surprisingly, the BBC was slammed for its approach:-

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(C) Adlerhorst is talking about instances where a significant number of IT professionals are working for years at a time on the same project/programme (or in business-as-usual roles) and with many people doing very similar roles. They are also likely to be performing roles similar to/the same as permanent employees. In these instances, they are probably right to be classed as employees and treated as such.

(D) In many other instances (particularly non-IT professionals), they are engaged to deliver activities that are not as Adlerhorst describes. Many are transformational in nature (i.e. not business-as-usual) and are not filling gaps in existing structures. However, from April 2020 in the private and third sector, they will be caught by the same approach and employers will be in a position of determining their employment status - something that does not have a material impact on most employers, but can be devastating for many individuals.

This has been the situation in the public sector since April 2017, with most employees having not a clue of the implications of such determinations. NHS England and Improvement have sent out strongly worded letters telling NHS organisations that all instances are within IR35 (i.e. all are deemed employees), when it is clear from the legislation (and even the HMRC CEST tool) that each case has to be judged on its merits and blanket application is not on.

Not surprisingly, there is a campaign to reverse this bad implementation with many of us visiting our MPs to inform them of the real situation and suggest alternatives.

Offering/giving people employment rights where they have few can be a very good thing, but is not a universal panacea, especially when a significant subset (para. D) of those caught by a bad implementation will reduce the flexibility of the UK workforce.
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  #73  
Old 09-08-2019, 09:25 AM
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Actually I was talking about engineering
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:29 AM
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Tbh I don’t see the transformational as being particularly important. More the mutuality of obligation.

If mutuality of obligation exists on a transformational project, and enough of the other tests are there, the transformational nature becomes irrelevant as it is still a contract of service rather than a contract for services.

Though I did laugh when HMRC left MOO out of CEST. CEST is crap, which I imagine we would agree on but for different reasons.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:40 AM
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:41 AM
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:42 AM
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Actually I was talking about engineering
Apologies, most people talk about IT professionals, as there are usually a number of them and they're doing similar/same work to employees.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:52 AM
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Tbh I don’t see the transformational as being particularly important. More the mutuality of obligation.

If mutuality of obligation exists on a transformational project, and enough of the other tests are there, the transformational nature becomes irrelevant as it is still a contract of service rather than a contract for services.

Though I did laugh when HMRC left MOO out of CEST. CEST is crap, which I imagine we would agree on but for different reasons.
I used the transformation aspect to distinguish activities from business-as-usual. Many transformational assignments are a mixture of activities, with the company bringing in specialists to diagnose problems and design/co-design solutions; hence it not being 'we need an X to do Y'.

MOO is important and a key test but from my experience, many employers and interim providers don't understand it/don't want to do anything that might rock the boat with NHS employers (i.e. those that pay their bill!)

CEST is crap; most employers and interim providers don't understand it and believe the government line that all interims should be caught within IR35.
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Old 09-08-2019, 04:55 PM
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So the **** the engineer who designed the automatic braking system that saved another person’s life?

So **** the guys who ran the lab that carried out the research into whatever life saving drug you care to mention?

And so on.
You are making a massive jump from what I wrote to your interpretation.
I make a comment about some other highly paid people and you interpret it as being about engineers.
Very disappointing.
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