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  #81  
Old 23-09-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Well, you did say it.

Re private schools you wrote Ďyou can also take your kids out of school for holidays in term time or whatever else, whenever you likeí. You didnít couch that in any caveats and implied that was the universal situation.

Looking back at your posts, making sweeping statements based on a small sample or experience seems to be a common theme.
Given Iíve already subsequently explained what I meant, then not sure why youíre going on about it.

But my general point, which I entirely stick by, is that itís far easier, in general to take kids out of private schools in term time than in state schools. There also isnít the strict state oversight and pressure on school targets.
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  #82  
Old 23-09-2019, 08:04 AM
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OFSTED like most regulators are far from perfect but they need constant reform not abolishion.

For example there is a school near me that is still trading on its 'outstanding' reputation, it was last inspected 9 years ago and has had a change of head in that time. There is not a single kid in that school who's place was applied for prior to the last inspection. It is massively outdated.

It is only a useful tool for parents if it is up to date and relevant.
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  #83  
Old 23-09-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Given Iíve already subsequently explained what I meant, then not sure why youíre going on about it.

But my general point, which I entirely stick by, is that itís far easier, in general to take kids out of private schools in term time than in state schools. There also isnít the strict state oversight and pressure on school targets.
Another sweeping statement.

One could equally argue that private schools are actually under more pressure to perform well, in fact to excel, otherwise parents will not select them and will walk away. A private school could collapse very quickly if they lost their reputation etc.

They are subject to inspection and I imagine the vast majority of those parents will read these reports as part of their research before choosing. And Iím sure there is plenty of pressure from their governing body, plus parents expecting the promised school targets to be met.

Under the Education Act, they offer a minimum of 180 days, whereas state schools are 190 days (plus 5 Insets). Generally they have a longer school day (eg registration at 8.30, end at 3.45), but school day lengths do vary across all school sectors.
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  #84  
Old 23-09-2019, 08:58 AM
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Regulators do have a habit of empire building.
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  #85  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
OFSTED like most regulators are far from perfect but they need constant reform not abolishion.

For example there is a school near me that is still trading on its 'outstanding' reputation, it was last inspected 9 years ago and has had a change of head in that time. There is not a single kid in that school who's place was applied for prior to the last inspection. It is massively outdated.

It is only a useful tool for parents if it is up to date and relevant.
Of course, your example (very valid that it is) was as much of a government policy decision as an Ofsted one - which was that outstanding schools should be freed from the rigmarole of inspection. And now the problem with that policy (as you explain) is becoming apparent.
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  #86  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by stevek View Post
Of course, your example (very valid that it is) was as much of a government policy decision as an Ofsted one - which was that outstanding schools should be freed from the rigmarole of inspection. And now the problem with that policy (as you explain) is becoming apparent.
Hence reform rather than elimination.

I can understand that they want to focus resources where they can do most good, and that is improving schools where performance is poorest.

Theresa May never got tired of trotting out her line about how many more pupils are in good or outstanding schools whenever an education question came up in PMQs. Now we have less inadequate and q improvement schools, they need to change their focus IMO and make sure their ratings are still accurate and relevant.
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  #87  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Another sweeping statement.

One could equally argue that private schools are actually under more pressure to perform well, in fact to excel, otherwise parents will not select them and will walk away. A private school could collapse very quickly if they lost their reputation etc.

They are subject to inspection and I imagine the vast majority of those parents will read these reports as part of their research before choosing. And Iím sure there is plenty of pressure from their governing body, plus parents expecting the promised school targets to be met.

Under the Education Act, they offer a minimum of 180 days, whereas state schools are 190 days (plus 5 Insets). Generally they have a longer school day (eg registration at 8.30, end at 3.45), but school day lengths do vary across all school sectors.
You could argue that but the simple fact is that private schools donít face the same state regulation. And they full well know that letting kids out of school sometimes in term time wonít damage their education. In the same way that significantly shorter term times wonít.

All private schools Iíve heard about give an extra week at Xmas and Easter and 2-3 weeks extra for summer.

Quote:
private schools are not bound by the dates set by the local education authority, and therefore have the freedom to set their own term dates.
There is a good article about the differences that private and state schools face with inspections:

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  #88  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Worksop Palace View Post
Utter nonsense and totally irrelevant to the OFSTED point anyway
It's not entirely irrelevant actually.

I'll use an example close to me, namely my sons school. It was a relatively new school, born about 15 years ago. About 6 years ago, after a poor Ofsted report, the governors were sacked and an IEB bought in, under the control of an academy trust, to improve the school. IEBs are shadowy entities, and there is very little accountability to the community, unlike a normal board of governors, which has to have a parent element. The school has now gone through the full academisation process. During the time of the IEB another two Ofsted inspections happened (unusual in such a short period to have 3 in 5 years!). The first of these, shortly after the IEB was installed, the staff were not told it was a full inspection by the head teacher, and the report was poor. The second they were fully prepped and the report was good. The IEB, and the LA, used this as a reason to justify making the school an academy.

People will have their own views about Academies, but in this case, the school was funded and built by PPI, which is still being paid for, but it is now fully owned by a private Academy trust and the Oftsed inspection process was managed in such a way so as to justify this.
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  #89  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Anneseagles View Post
The schools are notified of an inspection by the lead inspector at around midday of the working day before the inspection starts, so they already have less than 24 hours notice. The school will get a phone call about 15 minutes before an unannounced inspection.
That's not true. That might be what is supposed to happen, but anyone with children at school age will tell you that schools know well in advance of an inspection.
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  #90  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:31 AM
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I also know personally of a head teacher at a school that was put into special measures for financial irregularities, who then left said school and became an Ofsted inspector. So someone who had overseen a school that was failing then became the person who judged whether schools were being well run! That sort of tells you everything you need to know really.
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  #91  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Academies should be scrapped.

OFSTED is a terrible organisation. I was speaking to an OFSTED inspector a few months back who basically said as much. Itís hated by teachers, head teachers and teaching assistants.

It creates huge amounts of pressure for both teaching staff and pupils with little evidence that it is doing much good.

The big issue in education is the lack of funding and cuts. Followed by academies who are often run by crack pots.
Why should Academies be scrapped sorry ?
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  #92  
Old 23-09-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So you say itís rubbish then admit it happens lol. My experience of privileged people I know who can send their kids to private schools is they take their kids on holidays in term time and the schools donít seem to bat an eyelid.
TBH this is a rubbish and incorrect generalisation. probably biased by your view on privelege and public schools.
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  #93  
Old 23-09-2019, 10:06 AM
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That's not true. That might be what is supposed to happen, but anyone with children at school age will tell you that schools know well in advance of an inspection.
I can only tell you what happened prior to my schools last 2 inspections.
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  #94  
Old 23-09-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
That's not true. That might be what is supposed to happen, but anyone with children at school age will tell you that schools know well in advance of an inspection.
No sorry that is not the case.

A school may well have a good idea when they are going to be inspected, they know which year it is likely to come in and they will find out when inspections are happening in their area.

Actually knowing which day they are coming you get told the day before.
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Old 23-09-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You could argue that but the simple fact is that private schools donít face the same state regulation. And they full well know that letting kids out of school sometimes in term time wonít damage their education. In the same way that significantly shorter term times wonít.

All private schools Iíve heard about give an extra week at Xmas and Easter and 2-3 weeks extra for summer.



There is a good article about the differences that private and state schools face with inspections:

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Not facing exactly the same state regulation is probably part of the attraction. Not every child nor family wants exactly the same as the one next door....for example, private schools can prioritise on sports, or music, drama, special needs etc etc.

Youíre linking two different things together when it comes to attendance. If a school has a shorter term, it has geared up for that from the start and organised its schedules to cover the curriculum in that time.

Short terms does not necessarily mean less time in class, because many of those schools will have a longer school day all year. Just one more lesson a day means 5 a week, 50+ a term. And, as another poster said above, Saturday mornings are sometimes used too. This is very common for private senior schools who will use Saturdays for sports fixtures so that the pupils minimise their weekday absence due to sport.

Shorter terms therefore cause no damage as the pupil is not Ďmissing outí on class time, it was been re- organised. Most private schools also tend to have smaller classes than the local state school, which helps the teachers to crack on through the curriculum a bit more quickly.

Private schools kids on holiday in mid-July are therefore not missing any education, which is totally different from requesting school absence during the term.
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  #96  
Old 23-09-2019, 10:32 AM
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No sorry that is not the case.

A school may well have a good idea when they are going to be inspected, they know which year it is likely to come in and they will find out when inspections are happening in their area.

Actually knowing which day they are coming you get told the day before.
Officially perhaps. I know for certain that at least one school had advance warning through presumably unofficial channels. If it happens at one, I can only assume it happens at others.
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Old 23-09-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
That's not true. That might be what is supposed to happen, but anyone with children at school age will tell you that schools know well in advance of an inspection.
Iíve had experience of 2 inspections whilst volunteering at 2 different schools.

In both cases the senior management had a feeling that it would be the turn of our school some time soon, possibly that term. It wasnít known as a fact, but they know roughly how often a school is inspected (which can depend on what overall score was received last time) and therefore the next one will pop up again.

So I think whilst itís true that management will Ďhave a gut feelingí when an inspection might be imminent, in both cases the schools didnít know the exact date until right before it happened. I think the call came the day before.

I should add that I think that if a school does really poorly in an inspection, then I think they are given a time limit to improve and therefore they will know when the inspectors are returning (for example in 6 months time maybe). That has happened to friends working in struggling schools.
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  #98  
Old 23-09-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Hence reform rather than elimination.

I can understand that they want to focus resources where they can do most good, and that is improving schools where performance is poorest.

Theresa May never got tired of trotting out her line about how many more pupils are in good or outstanding schools whenever an education question came up in PMQs. Now we have less inadequate and q improvement schools, they need to change their focus IMO and make sure their ratings are still accurate and relevant.
For once, I wasn't disagreeing with you

As an aside, here's a Palace fan criticising the use of that tired line (including for the reason we're discussing) To view the link you have to Register or Login
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  #99  
Old 23-09-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Which is my opinion.
So you did state your opinion as if it were fact. Thanks for confirming.
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Old 23-09-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
Officially perhaps. I know for certain that at least one school had advance warning through presumably unofficial channels. If it happens at one, I can only assume it happens at others.
I am a school governor, we got notified the day before our inspection a couple of years ago. We knew it was coming though as we knew other schools in the area were being inspected and they cluster them all together staying in 1 area.

It may be others have found out unofficially but it is not the policy and not the reality in my experience.
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