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  #5261  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Have to agree with AJ on this. A house should be a home, not a profitable investment.
Does this mean that houses should either be owned by individuals/ families for them to live in or owned by councils/ non-profit-making housing associations?
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  #5262  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
Does this mean that houses should either be owned by individuals/ families for them to live in or owned by councils/ non-profit-making housing associations?
Actually that would be a good idea.
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  #5263  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:48 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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In Germany though a lot of accommodation is owned by investment institutions such as pension funds. This sort of thing is encroaching on the UK too in a big way. It would require a change in mindset amongst the British because if you are going to rent for life then you'll need massive savings for when you get older and can no longer work but still have the same bills each month.
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  #5264  
Old 01-01-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
In Germany though a lot of accommodation is owned by investment institutions such as pension funds. This sort of thing is encroaching on the UK too in a big way. It would require a change in mindset amongst the British because if you are going to rent for life then you'll need massive savings for when you get older and can no longer work but still have the same bills each month.
How do they manage in Germany?
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  #5265  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
How do they manage in Germany?
Shout across the Baltic Sea and ask them.
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  #5266  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:06 PM
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In actual fact though home ownership in Britain has been falling and is now lower than in a lot of countries. Much work to do for our politicians.
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  #5267  
Old 01-01-2020, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
Why aren’t house prices included in inflation calculations?
In case they get lifted by rogue hot air balloon pilots?
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  #5268  
Old 01-01-2020, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
Who owns the rental properties in Austria and Germany?
AJ's answered this. It's,essentially, irrelevant because German law is pro-tenant. We run an entirely different model in the UK, which doesn't work for tenants or the economy as a whole. It's just become another get rich quick wheeze here.

We rent out property in Brighton. No mortgages, so think it's not unreasonable to do so at below market rents. If you maintain the property and don't treat your tenants as cash cows you keep them for longer, which is good for them and administratively easier for the landlord. Of course, there is pressure all the time from the agent to 'maximise the return'. But they're only interested in their percentage. F**k 'em.

In my professional life, I see students all the time who are tied into outrageous contracts, with negligible landlord support, in sub-standard properties.
I had a proper row with the agents of a house my daughter and her friends were hoping to rent for the second year of uni. Seems to be that, as well as an immediate holding deposit, they are required to pay the full deposit in the first week of January for a property they will not occupy until the end of August. That's 6k from their inadequate maintenance loans. The rent system is broken in this country, and requires major reform. But, of course, a sizeable number of MPs will be BTL landlords, so it's not in their interest.
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  #5269  
Old 01-01-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
How do they manage in Germany?
You just need to look at their state pension provision, compared to ours. And controlled rent levels also leave more wriggle room for people to save.
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  #5270  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by spt1978 View Post
The Thatcher argument about Labour caring about the gap between rich and poor rather than total income levels?
I don't know her argument, but inferring from what you say, I imagine it is similar. Much left-wing argument is focused on equality of outcome (wealth) whereas in reality there are so many variables (people's attributes, attitudes, efforts, decisions, and plain old fortuity) that you can't possibly expect any meaningful equality of outcome without either rendering the economy so shit that everyone does equally badly, or otherwise tightly controlling people's lives so that their freedom is curtailed.

That's not to say that it should be every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost - safety nets such as social security benefits are just and proper, for example - but that's quite different from the direction that Corbyn was plainly pointing towards at this election.
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  #5271  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Sweden?
I don't know enough about Sweden to comment.
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  #5272  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
I don't know her argument, but inferring from what you say, I imagine it is similar. Much left-wing argument is focused on equality of outcome (wealth) whereas in reality there are so many variables (people's attributes, attitudes, efforts, decisions, and plain old fortuity) that you can't possibly expect any meaningful equality of outcome without either rendering the economy so shit that everyone does equally badly, or otherwise tightly controlling people's lives so that their freedom is curtailed.

That's not to say that it should be every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost - safety nets such as social security benefits are just and proper, for example - but that's quite different from the direction that Corbyn was plainly pointing towards at this election.
I'm not entirely convinced that Labour's ever been focussed on equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity, yes, because that's just civilised.
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  #5273  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
Why aren’t house prices included in inflation calculations?
They are hardly everyday transactions - most people probably make no more than 2-4 purchases in their lifetime. So I guess to include property in the basket would skew inflation figures and perhaps make the statistic less useful.
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  #5274  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Agreed. I hope a property crash wipes all BTL out.
Whilst it probably has restricted the number of family dwellings available (especially for sale), on the other hand it must have increased the amount of accommodation overall. By that I mean there is a larger supply of house shares available (many of them BTL), whereas families are less likely to let out their spare room to a lodger.

It's far from ideal, but given that everyone agrees there has been a prolonged shortage of new builds to meet an increasing population, BTL has at least incentivised one type of property-owner (landlords) to increase the number of dwellings available more than another property-owner (owner-occupiers) would have.

The long-term answer is to build more, of course.
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  #5275  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
I'm not entirely convinced that Labour's ever been focussed on equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity, yes, because that's just civilised.
That's not how it has come across in recent times.
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  #5276  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Whilst it probably has restricted the number of family dwellings available (especially for sale), on the other hand it must have increased the amount of accommodation overall. By that I mean there is a larger supply of house shares available (many of them BTL), whereas families are less likely to let out their spare room to a lodger.

It's far from ideal, but given that everyone agrees there has been a prolonged shortage of new builds to meet an increasing population, BTL has at least incentivised one type of property-owner (landlords) to increase the number of dwellings available more than another property-owner (owner-occupiers) would have.

The long-term answer is to build more, of course.
What? All that happens is that properties available to let are owned by fewer landlords. Where is the evidence of an increase in the number of dwellings available? We also have Buy to Leave, which takes properties out of the rental market altogether. There is no defending the current private rented sector model in the UK.
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  #5277  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:56 PM
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As I said, family houses that might've otherwise had spare bedrooms often now have those bedrooms filled as houses of multiple occupancy. I know plenty of younger people who share houses (usually by renting a room in a house populated with randoms) and a large number of those properties with be BTL.

In general I don't think that's desirable in and of itself, however the prolonged lack of building is not the fault of BTL landlords, and all the effects of BTL should be considered when assessing it.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
Does this mean that houses should either be owned by individuals/ families for them to live in or owned by councils/ non-profit-making housing associations?
I can live with both (well not the Housing Associations, given our local housing association actively seeks to find reasons why it doesn't have to house people who are homeless or facing eviction. For a friend of mine, that included leaving a Housing association home, eight years previously to move into private accomodation).

The 'non-profit' when it comes to government sourced work, generally means the business doesn't make a profit, because it pays out any profit in terms of 'dividends/bonuses/salary' to directors or in investments (not necessarily in housing stock) with a view to future increased earnings for directors etc.

Non-Profit / Charity groups seem to do very well for directors and senior people working within them (and working might be an exaggeration of their role).
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Harry Bassett View Post
I know that I have taken this out of context but even to make your point, if moral issues equates to decency,principles and caring for your fellow man you must have purloined that statement from Hans Christian Andersen.

When did they ever consider a moral issue???????????
By moral issues, I'm referring to non-economic issues that in the past were significant to traditional conservatives, not necessarily issues that could be philosophically argued to be moral or ethical.

If you went back to the 80s and early 90s, things psuedo-christian, primarily protestant, things like 'family values' morality were central to the Conservative parties basis. Thats become much less significant as they've arguably become the party which has had female leaders and cabinet ministers, LBGT MPs, an adulterous Leader, increasingly BAME cabinet positions etc. This is the same party that supported Clause 28, notably racialist and was arguably the White party in the 80s.

More significantly, its become 'openly tolerant' provided you're economically successful...
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Old 02-01-2020, 10:35 AM
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Does this mean that houses should either be owned by individuals/ families for them to live in or owned by councils/ non-profit-making housing associations?
There is room for all sorts of housing options.

It just takes a little imagination and legislation, plus a lot of house building.

I still think councils are ideally placed to be 'social' landlords, central government funds should be diverted to massively boost council building and for staffing up housing and maintenance departments.

I am also a big fan of co-operatives. Housing associations have become corporations in their own rights in many cases and some seen more set up to serve their managers and directors than their tenants and those needing housing.

For private landlords I would consider using use the 'rates' system to reward and punish.

All rates should be paid by the owner. A property left empty for me than a year (bar exceptional circumstances, such as hospitalization, probate etc) should be treble rated. Properties on six month or less leases be double rated. Properties granting secure tenancies and qualifying for fair rent can be half-rated.

I am not wedded to this particular idea but taxation is an excellent way of punishing bad behaviour and rewarding good (in regards to effects on wider society)

New Labour and the Tories have sat on their hands and at times have actively exacerbated the problem, Thatcher being the prime destructor. How many properties does the Blair family own?
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