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  #21  
Old 08-01-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Random* View Post
The Alternative Vote method offered in 2011 is not more representational than FPTP.

It's a great way of picking a president as you can vote for your favourite candidate even if they are unlikely to win. For a parliamentary election at best it's no better than FPTP.

If you want a more representational parliament then you need to have Proportional Representation. You'll end up with a few extreme fringe MPs, but the electorate won't be forced into tactical voting.
You would also likely end up with coalition politics and the country showed in 2010-15 that it doesn't have the understanding for that.
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  #22  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:00 PM
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One thing is for sure, our current democracy isn't working.
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  #23  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Well I see you are in Epsom, fancy an EDL MP representing you.
Will of the people etc., etc.
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  #24  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
You can come with any version of PR and then state that if you stand on one leg its not PR. People wanted FPTP get over it.
I can't actually remember how I voted in that referendum, I may have preferred FPTP to what was on offer.

However, you misunderstand my point. As a Brexiter you champion taking back control and democracy, and yet we have an electoral system that makes a very large number of votes meaningless. How do you square this circle? Unless taking back control was just a smokescreen?
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  #25  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
One thing is for sure, our current democracy isn't working.
In what way is it not working?

I get that many people will disagree with the Brexit referendum and I get that many will disagree with the policies of the current government but that would be the case if the vote had been remain and Labour were in power now.

How is our democracy broken?
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  #26  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
I can't actually remember how I voted in that referendum, I may have preferred FPTP to what was on offer.

However, you misunderstand my point. As a Brexiter you champion taking back control and democracy, and yet we have an electoral system that makes a very large number of votes meaningless. How do you square this circle? Unless taking back control was just a smokescreen?
Because those who have been voted into power in this country make the decisions affecting this country.

The party in power (and its not always the case) received the highest number of votes of any party. However as this was only just they do not have a majority.

You seem to almost suggest your vote counted less than other peoples but it did not. If you did not vote for your MP, then in your area you have the minority opinion. Our system allows people to represent and area and the specific needs and desires of that area.

PR would just select someone off a list who will make decisions based more likely on their own area. You may want that, many do not.
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Because those who have been voted into power in this country make the decisions affecting this country.
My Brexiter irony alarm just went off
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  #28  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
I can't actually remember how I voted in that referendum, I may have preferred FPTP to what was on offer.

However, you misunderstand my point. As a Brexiter you champion taking back control and democracy, and yet we have an electoral system that makes a very large number of votes meaningless. How do you square this circle? Unless taking back control was just a smokescreen?
You can't there will always be a loser if there is winner. If the winner does a bad job they get voted out next time. Remember you are not the only person that can decide what is good or bad in this context, we can't all have our own way. Its majority rule or at least a version of it.

A smokescreen for what?
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
My Brexiter irony alarm just went off
Its worth noting both Labour and the Tories supported FPTP only the Libs opposed it.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintagain View Post
Its worth noting both Labour and the Tories supported FPTP only the Libs opposed it.
Its worth noting both Labour and the Tories support the referendum result only the Libs oppose it.
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  #31  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
In what way is it not working?

I get that many people will disagree with the Brexit referendum and I get that many will disagree with the policies of the current government but that would be the case if the vote had been remain and Labour were in power now.

How is our democracy broken?
Nothing to do with Brexit.

Westminster has failed the regions and swathes of the population. We need a massive transfer of political power and administration to the regions. Elected regional government. It works elsewhere, (we are the most centralised country in western Europe). We also need to re-empower local government. Councils have become little more than contract compliance organisations.

PR?, yes every vote should count and if we get a smattering of extreme right wingers in the commons so be it. We should be confident enough to argue and discredit them within parliament. I also think it's worth looking secret votes in the commons. It might break party bloc voting and even improve the calibre of M.P.'s (although PR might do this too).

We really do need radical constitutional change. If nothing else, it might stop lard arsed northerners , whingeing about London all the time.
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  #32  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
Its worth noting both Labour and the Tories support the referendum result only the Libs oppose it.
And next to no-one is supporting the outcome.
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  #33  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:56 PM
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Nothing to do with Brexit.

Westminster has failed the regions and swathes of the population. We need a massive transfer of political power and administration to the regions. Elected regional government. It works elsewhere, (we are the most centralised country in western Europe). We also need to re-empower local government. Councils have become little more than contract compliance organisations.

PR?, yes every vote should count and if we get a smattering of extreme right wingers in the commons so be it. We should be confident enough to argue and discredit them within parliament. I also think it's worth looking secret votes in the commons. It might break party bloc voting and even improve the calibre of M.P.'s (although PR might do this too).

We really do need radical constitutional change. If nothing else, it might stop lard arsed northerners , whingeing about London all the time.
So how do you want to stop lard arsed northerners complaining about london?

PR or re-empowering local government?

Think the second would be a shock most londoners are not ready for.
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  #34  
Old 08-01-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
So how do you want to stop lard arsed northerners complaining about london?

PR or re-empowering local government?

Think the second would be a shock most londoners are not ready for.
What were Brexiters complaints about the EU governance model?
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  #35  
Old 08-01-2019, 05:37 PM
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[QUOTE=GreatGonzo;14583151]So how do you want to stop lard arsed northerners complaining about london?

Obviously by giving them power to run their regions, transport, infrastructure, economy, education etc etc.

'No one listens to us' has been a pretty regular chant.
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  #36  
Old 08-01-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
I can't actually remember how I voted in that referendum, I may have preferred FPTP to what was on offer.

However, you misunderstand my point. As a Brexiter you champion taking back control and democracy, and yet we have an electoral system that makes a very large number of votes meaningless. How do you square this circle? Unless taking back control was just a smokescreen?
It was more than a smokescreen. It was a vacuous slogan for the vacuous of mind to be deceived by.
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  #37  
Old 09-01-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
You would also likely end up with coalition politics and the country showed in 2010-15 that it doesn't have the understanding for that.
Yes, coalition politics would be almost guaranteed. Personally I think that coalitions are a good thing as it forces everyone to find common ground.

As for the public, well yes it would be a leap, but with the current system in place it's never going to happen.
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  #38  
Old 09-01-2019, 09:49 AM
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Yes, coalition politics would be almost guaranteed. Personally I think that coalitions are a good thing as it forces everyone to find common ground.
I agree. Much prefer consensus over endless point scoring confrontation.
I also think we should move parliament to a modern building in the Midlands and leave the Palace of Westminster to the tourists.
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  #39  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:02 AM
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Lots of people say they prefer coalitions, but the evidence of how the public has punished the Lib Dems for going into coalition with the Conservatives suggests the reality is rather different.
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  #40  
Old 09-01-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Random* View Post
The Alternative Vote method offered in 2011 is not more representational than FPTP.

It's a great way of picking a president as you can vote for your favourite candidate even if they are unlikely to win. For a parliamentary election at best it's no better than FPTP.

If you want a more representational parliament then you need to have Proportional Representation. You'll end up with a few extreme fringe MPs, but the electorate won't be forced into tactical voting.
I'm inclined to agree with you (and PR was what the LD's really wanted, but AV was the best they could get on the referendum). Not sure about your final point, though - there's no need to vote tactically under AV. (Eg you support Labour but live in a Tory/LD marginal and don't want the Tories in. Currently, you might feel forced to vote tactically for the Lib Dems. Under AV, you vote Labour 1, Lib Dems 2.)
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