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  #2081  
Old 04-08-2018, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woosie View Post
This question has been posed/raised on several threads recently (not a criticism!) And the answer is essentially: No.

It's not as simple as just throwing them in and seeing how they get on. They have to be of a certain ability to start with.

Aaron Wan-Bissaka had four years of excelling at Under-23 level before getting his chance. I'd have happily thrown him in and said when I saw him for the 18s that he would debut for the first team by the time he was 20 but would never have guessed he would do *this* well.

You can't just throw in kids who've not madea impact at U23 level.

We are in a totally different age of youth football. EPPP wasn't a thing when the likes of Wilf came through.

Players aren't tested enough in the 23s.

The only ones you could feasibly give a few minutes to are Lokilo, Kirby or Lumeka (but he's not that highly regarded).

I'd like youth players involved more than anyone but it's just not feasible. They're not at a level where you can justify throwing them in.

A lot of the time people say why not throw them in without having seen them play, and fail to appreciate why they may not be suitable.

This is a problem with English football in general and the England team. People calling for Jadon Sancho to be in the senior squad for example.

The reason those players mentioned caught people by surprise is because people were not familiar with their names. How much coverage of the academy was there in 2010? Especially outside of official sources.

That is also four players in what 8 years or so. One since we got promoted.

Loads of coverage if you want to find it. I’ve followed the zodiacs youth since the 80s.

Moses and Bostock we’re well known coming through. Who was the ginger haired striker in the 90s, prolific in youth / reserve football, he got a lot of coverage but never really was given a first team chance.

I’m not sure I agree with your post, Zaha / Clybe were very close to being released and surprised a few once given a chance. AWB was as you say going to be loaned to L2 side. But thrived when given a chance.. Thrown in if you like due to exceptional circumstances

Give youth a chance!!

Last edited by palace_burger; 04-08-2018 at 07:33 PM.
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  #2082  
Old 04-08-2018, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by palace_burger View Post
Loads of coverage if you want to find it. I’ve followed the zodiacs youth since the 80s.

Moses and Bostock we’re well known coming through. Who was the ginger haired striker in the 90s, prolific in youth / reserve football, he got a lot of coverage but never really was given a first team chance.

I’m not sure I agree with your post, Zaha / Clybe were very close to being released and surprised a few once given a chance. AWB was as you say going to be loaned to L2 side. But thrived when given a chance.. Thrown in if you like due to exceptional circumstances

Give youth a chance!!
Griffiths?
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  #2083  
Old 04-08-2018, 08:37 PM
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Griffiths?
Gareth Williams or something like that?
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  #2084  
Old 04-08-2018, 09:13 PM
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Having watched them at Three Bridges today (Palace didn’t bother to advertise it), they are fit, mobile, strong and work like a team.

McGregor was excellent in midfield, as was Lokilo.

Flanagan grew into the game well, but number 18 came on and took his 2 simple chances to make it 3-0. Daly came on and showed why he’s highly rated. He’s nippy, strong and puts himself in there against players that were tiring and grabbing, unlucky that he didn’t score.

It should’ve been a lot more than 3-0 if not for blinding Keeping by our previous Academy GK, Kieron Thorp.
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  #2085  
Old 04-08-2018, 10:17 PM
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Gareth Williams or something like that?
It will certainly be him. I remember watching the reserves a bit around that time and he kept on scoring. I was sure he was going to be great. But it just never happened.
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  #2086  
Old 04-08-2018, 11:30 PM
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Gareth Graham
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  #2087  
Old 04-08-2018, 11:41 PM
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Gareth Graham
The ginger haired striker who he was referring to was Gareth Williams who was sold to Colchester. He hit the crossbar after coming off the bench for Palace, had that gone in maybe his career might have been different.

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Gareth Graham also ginger haired was a midfielder but wasnt hyped as much as Williams.

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  #2088  
Old 05-08-2018, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palace_burger View Post
Loads of coverage if you want to find it. I’ve followed the zodiacs youth since the 80s.

Moses and Bostock we’re well known coming through. Who was the ginger haired striker in the 90s, prolific in youth / reserve football, he got a lot of coverage but never really was given a first team chance.

I’m not sure I agree with your post, Zaha / Clybe were very close to being released and surprised a few once given a chance. AWB was as you say going to be loaned to L2 side. But thrived when given a chance.. Thrown in if you like due to exceptional circumstances

Give youth a chance!!
I'm pretty sure you were referring to Gareth Williams but I think it was early 00s not in the 90s.
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  #2089  
Old 05-08-2018, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CornishPalace View Post
Gareth Williams or something like that?
Yeah that's probably right and who I was thinking of I think
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  #2090  
Old 05-08-2018, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
Yeah that's probably right and who I was thinking of I think
Very good finisher but if memory serves he struggled as the game got faster the higher he went. Needed time on the ball and wasn't the quickest, deadly when he got it though.
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  #2091  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palace_burger View Post
Loads of coverage if you want to find it. I’ve followed the zodiacs youth since the 80s.

Moses and Bostock we’re well known coming through. Who was the ginger haired striker in the 90s, prolific in youth / reserve football, he got a lot of coverage but never really was given a first team chance.

I’m not sure I agree with your post, Zaha / Clybe were very close to being released and surprised a few once given a chance. AWB was as you say going to be loaned to L2 side. But thrived when given a chance.. Thrown in if you like due to exceptional circumstances

Give youth a chance!!
Zaha didn't break through in the academy until he was a second-year scholar granted, but he was thrust into the first-team in the Championship - as you say due to exceptional circumstances. He trained with the first team and became better, he played with the first team and became better. He is one of the best players in the country now. You can't expect every player to be like that. I'm not sure Clyne was ever close to being released. He was behind Michael Abnett in the pecking order but that isn't to say he was going to be let go.

The logic of just throwing a youth player in doesn't stand up. As I said, they have to be of a certain ability before you can say yeah you know what, throw him in, give him a chance and see what he can do.

We are now a PL club aiming for the top 10, thinking you can throw someone in with limited experience is naive. AWB spent 4 years in the U21s/U23s with at least 2 of those showing he was good enough to have that chance of playing men's football. Yes AWB was going to be loaned to L2 as the aim, but there was interest from the Championship as well. He was one I tracked from his U18 debut and it was apparent to me that he would go on to be a first team player. It was just a question of when.

Young players who have played a handful of games at U23 level it would be stupid to bring them into the first team.

I'm all for players who have been in the U23 side, travelled with the squad and done well in the 23s and training to be promoted to the first team, but it's totally unrealistic and utopian to expect to just "give youth a chance" as a catch-all phrase for anyone who hits a bit of good form.

The only players who you could realistically put into the first team and say you know what he's 20 minutes let's see how you do are those who have been in the 23s for a few years. The likes of Lokilo and Kirby, primarily.
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  #2092  
Old 05-08-2018, 02:30 PM
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Spot on Matt. Although Clyne had to play left back a lot in U18s while Abnett held down the RB slot, I don't think releasing Clyne was ever a serious consideration.
Still a massive massive gap between U18 / U23 football and 1st team football. Two possible ways for young players to bridge that gap are loans to play 1st team elsewhere and training day in day out with first team.
A combination of both is probably ideal.
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  #2093  
Old 05-08-2018, 11:23 PM
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What happened to Abnett, Gazza? I remember people telling me how promising he was at the time, and I know I should recall what happened, but I don't

Was it simply Clyne got first run at a first team spot (because Abnett was injured that night) and thus then blocked his path?

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Old 05-08-2018, 11:37 PM
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Will be interesting to see how Reise Allassani gets on this season at Coventry after a great season at Dulwich Hamlet.
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  #2095  
Old 06-08-2018, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Hart View Post
What happened to Abnett, Gazza? I remember people telling me how promising he was at the time, and I know I should recall what happened, but I don't

Was it simply Clyne got first run at a first team spot (because Abnett was injured that night) and thus then blocked his path?
Didn't he get a really bad injury just before the start of a season that took him out for something like a year? Cruciate or bad break or something and then never really made it back at the same level is how I 'half remember it'.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:53 AM
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Spot on Matt. Although Clyne had to play left back a lot in U18s while Abnett held down the RB slot, I don't think releasing Clyne was ever a serious consideration.
Still a massive massive gap between U18 / U23 football and 1st team football. Two possible ways for young players to bridge that gap are loans to play 1st team elsewhere and training day in day out with first team.
A combination of both is probably ideal.

I think a lot of the “throw the kids in” posters also hugely underestimate the physicality of the top level pro game. I remember an early home game back under Holloway vs Spurs and being surprised by the size and power of their players vs ours, especially in midfield. The change in Wilfs game once he physically developed with full first team regimes etc has been remarkable.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:58 AM
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I think a lot of the “throw the kids in” posters also hugely underestimate the physicality of the top level pro game. I remember an early home game back under Holloway vs Spurs and being surprised by the size and power of their players vs ours, especially in midfield. The change in Wilfs game once he physically developed with full first team regimes etc has been remarkable.
He was in the first team
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:10 AM
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A couple of interesting articles this morning:

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Issott said: “It is so difficult to tell if young players are ready until you put them in.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:11 AM
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He was in the first team

Not sure of your point? Wilf was a player with great potential when he first came in, but has come on to the level he is now thanks to hugely improving his physical strength and stamina (as well as his skills and football nous) That accelerated once he was fully integrated into the first team squad and got him moving from cameo and impact sub performances to regular starts and match changing performances.

Players like Kirby need to make the same changes which don’t come immediately by just throwing them into games.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:50 AM
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I wonder how much better some of these players could become if only there was a competitive league for them to play in? There really should be a Premier League reserve league or something where they could play every week and even have relegation and promotions if needed.


The whole youth development in England seems such a shambles with team likes Chelsea being allowed to hoard kids only to not have a good environment for them to develop so they must be loaned out instead. And isn't it a sad thing to see even League 1 and 2 teams filling their sides and benches with foreign players when they really ought to de a breeding ground for homegrown talent instead?
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